In message
Laurence Payne wrote:


Not Londoners. London Underground users.
There are not yet border controls at the M25.

Rumour has it there will be, when the bomb drops. To keep the
contaminated hordes IN.

If they drop the bomb on Charing Cross (the traditional nuclear target in
cold war planning) there won't be any contaminated hordes to keep in.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

If you want BAA to offer the concession to their passengers as
well, who do you propose should foot the bill and why?
What bill? Did BAA run extra trains or otherwise incur any extra
costs?

The money they lose by people who are using the HEx to get from
Heathrow to Paddington, as the service is intended, buying
travelcards instead. If everyone gets to take advantage of the
concessions being made to TfL ticket holders, that's not fair on HEx,
who are offering a helpful service to otherwise stranded members of
the public. HEx didn't instantly become part of the underground that
weekend

So are you saying that people who were aware of the concession should
nevertheless pay the HEX ripoff fare in order to boost BAA's profits?
Surely it is ever passenger's right to pay the least fare that they can
legally get away with.

It is their right to get the cheapest tickets, of course it is. Just as
it's HEx's to sell their own tickets for their own trains from their own
offices and own machines.

d wrote in
:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

If you want BAA to offer the concession to their passengers as
well, who do you propose should foot the bill and why?
What bill? Did BAA run extra trains or otherwise incur any extra
costs?

The money they lose by people who are using the HEx to get from
Heathrow to Paddington, as the service is intended, buying
travelcards instead. If everyone gets to take advantage of the
concessions being made to TfL ticket holders, that's not fair on
HEx, who are offering a helpful service to otherwise stranded
members of the public. HEx didn't instantly become part of the
underground that weekend

So are you saying that people who were aware of the concession should
nevertheless pay the HEX ripoff fare in order to boost BAA's profits?
Surely it is ever passenger's right to pay the least fare that they
can legally get away with.

It is their right to get the cheapest tickets, of course it is. Just
as it's HEx's to sell their own tickets for their own trains from
their own offices and own machines.

Fine, but HEX should not display signs which imply that their tickets are
the only ones which are valid on the route and that, despite advance
information to the contrary, travelcards or other London Underground tickets
are not valid. If such signs are normally displayed, they should be covered
or turned off during times when LT tickets are valid.

The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one specific
TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me. We need ticket staff to be independent of
TOCs and to be able to sell tickets for any TOC - otherwise what it the
point of privatisation to force TOCs to compete with each other?

I'm not saying that HEX should not be able to sell their own tickets at
these times - just that during the weekends when LT tickets are valid, they
should not be at all surprised if no-one buys those tickets because much
cheaper alternative is available. And I see nothing wrong with LT
publicising the fact that their tickets are much cheaper - that's what
competition is all about. Anything that publicises that your competition is
ripping you off has got to be good for the passenger - and he's the most
important person in all this. Only a moron would choose to pay more for
something they could get cheaper.

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

[snip]
The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one specific
TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me.

HEX is not a TOC
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Graeme Wall wrote in
:

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

[snip]
The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one
specific TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me.

HEX is not a TOC

All right. If you want to split hairs, maybe I should have said "the TOC
which runs the HEx service".

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote in
:

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

[snip]
The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one
specific TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me.

HEX is not a TOC

All right. If you want to split hairs, maybe I should have said "the TOC
which runs the HEx service".
Which TOC runs it? I thought it was a privatly subsidised service

Paul wrote in
:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote in
:

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

[snip]
The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one
specific TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me.

HEX is not a TOC

All right. If you want to split hairs, maybe I should have said "the
TOC which runs the HEx service".

Which TOC runs it? I thought it was a privatly subsidised service

Is the company which runs it not classed as a TOC then?

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

If you want BAA to offer the concession to their passengers as
well, who do you propose should foot the bill and why?
What bill? Did BAA run extra trains or otherwise incur any extra
costs?

The money they lose by people who are using the HEx to get from
Heathrow to Paddington, as the service is intended, buying
travelcards instead. If everyone gets to take advantage of the
concessions being made to TfL ticket holders, that's not fair on
HEx, who are offering a helpful service to otherwise stranded
members of the public. HEx didn't instantly become part of the
underground that weekend

So are you saying that people who were aware of the concession should
nevertheless pay the HEX ripoff fare in order to boost BAA's profits?
Surely it is ever passenger's right to pay the least fare that they
can legally get away with.

It is their right to get the cheapest tickets, of course it is. Just
as it's HEx's to sell their own tickets for their own trains from
their own offices and own machines.

Fine, but HEX should not display signs which imply that their tickets are
the only ones which are valid on the route and that, despite advance
information to the contrary, travelcards or other London Underground
tickets are not valid. If such signs are normally displayed, they should
be covered or turned off during times when LT tickets are valid.

Why not? It's up to TfL to tell its customers that they can use HEx, not
for HEx to tell everyone they can buy cheaper tickets from TfL. I thought
that would be obvious.

The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one specific
TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me. We need ticket staff to be independent
of
TOCs and to be able to sell tickets for any TOC - otherwise what it the
point of privatisation to force TOCs to compete with each other?

I'm not saying that HEX should not be able to sell their own tickets at
these times - just that during the weekends when LT tickets are valid,
they should not be at all surprised if no-one buys those tickets because
much cheaper alternative is available. And I see nothing wrong with LT
publicising the fact that their tickets are much cheaper - that's what
competition is all about. Anything that publicises that your competition
is ripping you off has got to be good for the passenger - and he's the
most important person in all this. Only a moron would choose to pay more
for something they could get cheaper.

They aren't in freakin' competition at those times. They're helping each
other out. HEx are helping out TfL by providing trains where TfL can't.
They're not trying to get each others trade. They do that when they're not
helping each other out, when they offer different services, and that is
reflected in the price. If you can get from Central London to Heathrow on
the Piccadilly line in 15m, I'm sure they'd put their price up to £16, too.

HEx are not ripping the customers off. If anything, TfL are taking a hit
just to let *their* passengers have the ability to travel the routes they've
already paid for.

d wrote in
:

Fine, but HEX should not display signs which imply that their
tickets are the only ones which are valid on the route and that,
despite advance information to the contrary, travelcards or other
London Underground tickets are not valid. If such signs are normally
displayed, they should be covered or turned off during times when LT
tickets are valid.

Why not? It's up to TfL to tell its customers that they can use HEx,
not for HEx to tell everyone they can buy cheaper tickets from TfL. I
thought that would be obvious.

I can understand HEx not publicising the fact that there are cheaper fares
available, although I'd have thought that there might be similar rules to
the "Other listings magazines are available" caption that you often get on
BBC trailers about Radio Times.

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that TfL has
provided is very different. That's not just witholding information. It's
lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to believe: TfL who say that their
tickets are being accepted on HEx trains or HEx who say that travel cards
are not being accepted.

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote in
:

In message
"Martin Underwood" wrote:

[snip]
The concept of ticket offices and machines which only sell one
specific TOC's tickets is abhorrent to me.

HEX is not a TOC

All right. If you want to split hairs, maybe I should have said "the TOC
which runs the HEx service".



There isn't a TOC which runs the HEX service. HEX is operated by HEX for the
BAA.

It is not splitting hairs, it is making the point that sounding off about
TOCs and public service obligations is irrelevant in this case. HEX has no
public service obligations, it is a privately owned business that can do what
it legally likes. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Also (not you) some people ought to be careful before they post libellous
rubbish about such organisations, you never know when m'learned friends might
take an interest.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html