On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:13:46 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:

Everyone in this NG knows what Oyster is, how to get one, what it costs
etc, thus if anyone on this NG pays one of these rip-off fares they
have only themselves to blame. You cannot, however, apply this
argument to a non- or poor-English-speaking tourist, or visitor to
London who doesn't frequent big cities and their transport systems, who
would just go to the ticket machine and prod the likely looking button.

The first point of contact for TfL really ought to be the website.

I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes
down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious
point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask
someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...?

However like most other websites put together by British businesses and
organisations it assumes that everyone accross the world reads English.
Even the visitlondon.com site fails to display those nice little flags
leading you on to pages in different languages.

But what flag represents English? (con't p94 of various web design
newsgroups). I've come across a website which has a Swiss flag as a
language option - great, you then have to guess which of 4 languages
it might lead to!

The name of the langauge, in that langauge, is better eg
* English, Nederlands, Deutsch, tlhIngan Hol
(A site with "English version" written in Japanese isn't very helpful)

Fortuneately the situation improves slightly once the tourist gets to
London. TfL produce flyers in foreign languages for example, I'm not
sure if they promote Oyster as a benefit to tourists.

VisitBritain do:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=880
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis wrote:

I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes
down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious
point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask
someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...?

Maybe oop north the bus drivers have all the time in the world to
discuss the best ticket option, that's not the situation in London or
most other big cities. In fact often it's not possible to get multiple
journey passes off the driver, all they are able to sell is single
(sometimes return) tickets.

VisitBritain do:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=880

Well certainly no mention about Oyster on the (North American) pages of
the Visit Britain site. All they seem to list is 3 & 7 day travel cards:

http://www.visitbritaindirect.com/en...ail.aspx?ID=67


--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Phil Richards wrote:
Even the visitlondon.com site fails to display those nice little flags
leading you on to pages in different languages.

Do we know for a fact that the site doesn't detect your country
automatically and present the correct language, or at least the option?

I'm not saying it does, but let's not be too quick to slag them off. A
lot of sites don't use flags anymore, as they can present an
alternative site for foreign access. Of course, it would be useful for
in the UK too, for tourists in Internet Cafes and the like. Maybe I'm
giving them too much credit.

Jonathan

Graham J wrote:
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except:
-- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00)

Ouch, 25% fare increase.

Cash fares go up significantly:
-- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!)
-- bus singles from £1.50 to £2
-- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards

Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be
abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make
more sense.

- Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster

How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives,
especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in
life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised?

It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop
journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding,
but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they
wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how
about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is
encouraging leisure use?

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)

Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are
supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct
procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to
National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on
the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not
under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one.



It is absolutely immoral to introduce even the £3 penalty fare, let
alone £4, before the means of avoiding it are fully available.

If you have a period paper travelcard from NR, plus a bit of PAYG on
your Oyster for when you go beyond your Underground zones, you can't
touch in or out without leaving the train, going up the escalator,
touching in/out, going back down and waiting for another train. A £3
fine for finding that ludicrously inconvenient is not justifiable.

Given that trains generally know where they are now, why not have
readers in trains, as in buses, that you can touch as you leave your
paper travelcard zone?

No one on pure PAYG would be able to get away with touching it as they
saw the inspector coming, because they'd have had to get into a station
somehow. People who used Oyster to get in would already have touched
at the gate. People with paper travelcards would have to touch in the
train at some point or else get caught by the gates when leaving their
destination station.

The only issue then is the range of possible extension fares (ie any
benefit to touching just before getting off), but I think that the
range of possible fares is limited, since it would be either Zone 1 or
non-Zone 1.

In message , Phil Richards
writes
I was thinking about the number of visitors coming to London to do some
research on-line before arriving.

Right, as someone who's a regular here and obviously has a lot of
experience (and a vested interest) in London as a tourist destination,
I'll wade in.

firstly, I reckon Oyster is brilliant. Its PAYG incarnation fits my
needs pretty much perfectly, apart from the National Rail anomaly which
it seems is on the way to being fixed.

Secondly, I applaud the current TfL policy of vigorously promoting
Oyster use by making big differences between on vehicle or at station
cash fares and those you can get from Oyster. A lot of other
organisations would pussy-foot around giving 10% savings or something.
TfL, or Ken if you like, has decided to go the whole hog with this and
make a BIG distinction. Again, I reckon its good in principle.

Now to the down side of all this. It is difficult, VERY difficult to
explain PAYG and Oyster to causal visitors. Paper Travelcards and the
savings from them are no problem and people usually have something
similar "at home". But the concept of stored value tickets and
specifically daily capping is so alien to people as to be not worthwhile
mentioning.

I said in a posting last year that people are remarkably ill-at-ease
using public transport in London sometimes. We a few weeks ago I had a
large group of people from the North of England who, during their time
with me had effectively a full day to explore London. They were
staying in Zone 1 and - almost as an experiment - I tried a simplified
explanation of Oyster PAYG on the way down. I really wished I hadn't.
Confusion reigned supreme and most of them simply couldn't get their
heads around it all. The more I tried to explain it, the worse it became
as they muddled up period Travelcards, paper Travelcards, the GBP3
deposit and daily capping. All this to save people 50p. I don't
think I'll do it again; I'll just send people off to buy a paper
Travelcard and save myself the ulcer! :-) (My coach driver thought I
was mad to have tried and maybe he was right.)

The deposit #/daily capping concepts are the hardest to explain. I've
tried an analogy with Phonecards but it didn't seem to work.

One more observation, some of my people often have cause to make just
one or possibly two short journeys in Zone 1 (maybe Aldwych to Oxford
Circus or Oxford Circus to Westminster or something like that. What
they therefore want is to go to a ticket machine or a bus driver and buy
a single ticket. Once its beyond that, then they simply head for a
taxi. Telling them that it will cost GBP4 each will simply stop such
journeys happening.

Part of me sees the logic of the new system and supports encouraging
Oyster use, it really does. But I know I'll be on the sharp end when I
give people the Bad News. (Was it the Greeks who used to execute the
bearers of bad tidings?)


PS The vending machine thing won't work with these people either. It
would be just as hard to explain.

PPS I know that I tend to have a slightly skewed view of London
visitors. As a general rule, if they're using a guide they'll be less
confident on their own than average.

PPPS Maybe I'm just bad at explaining things?! ;-)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Phil Richards
writes
Maybe oop north the bus drivers have all the time in the world to
discuss the best ticket option,
Have you ever travelled by bus in Newcastle or Leeds (or Birmingham,
depending on your definition of "north", Phil?! :-))

Well certainly no mention about Oyster on the (North American) pages of
the Visit Britain site. All they seem to list is 3 & 7 day travel
cards:

http://www.visitbritaindirect.com/en...ail.aspx?ID=67
That's probably an oversight (these things can take a very long time to
filter through" to tourist guide book/www level.

But I could be generous and put it down to Keeping it Simple! People
often like that. I have some friends who've just come back from Vienna
where they bought some sort of pass for Museums and public transport. It
probably worked out more expensive but they greatly valued the
convenience of just travelling as they pleased without having to work
out the intricacies or otherwise of the Vienna fare system.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Bob Wood wrote:
Kev wrote:

I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from
£1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over
a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10
years.

£1.40 to £4.00 is a rise of 185%, not 167%

£1.00 to £4.00 is a rise of 300%, not 400%.

I don't recall it being £1.40 - last year it was £2.00 cash AFAIK. In
real terms these rises will be somewhat less; certainly on buses, fares
have barely risen at all in real terms over the last six years.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

wrote:
Well, at least transport in London is still THE MOST!

THE MOST expensive in Europe

and

THE MOST outdated in Europe

Yet still the most popular with visitors...!


--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Arthur Figgis wrote:

I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes
down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious
point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask
someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...?

maybe so the rest of us are not stuck on the bus waiting while your mum
goes through all the options with the bus driver about where she is
going and what ticket she should get?

Yet still the most popular with visitors...!

It's not like they have a choice :-)