DaveP wrote:
I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket

It's probably more common because standard is full, and whilst it's
admirable that the RPI's did their duty I feel the train company would be
better off concentrating on ensuring the size of train matches the number
of those travelling. Although maybe the overcrowding is deliberate to
encourage people to buy first class?

I'm on an annual standard and wouldn't sit in first unless I had
permission, but it is kind of galling to see empty seats, especially as I'm
the last stop before London so it's unlikely anyone else would need that
seat.

Dave

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

In the 1960s I travelled a lot using a rail warrant (Second Class in
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between
first and second fares. I was in the Merchant Navy and the extra
luggage allowance was significant, we had to be prepaered to be away
for up to a year and able to survive from Arctic cold to Tropical heat.

Bill Harris

Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason
is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and
many people would just chance it.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

I have sat in first class on a long distance train with a standard class
ticket with the aim to upgrade, and none of the crews have ever tried to
penalise me.

When the conductor takes my ticket, I simply say that I would like to
upgrade to first class, pay the difference and everybody is happy..

"Joyce Whitchurch" wrote in message
...
Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason is
that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and many
people would just chance it.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

wrote in message
.uk...
I have sat in first class on a long distance train with a standard class
ticket with the aim to upgrade, and none of the crews have ever tried to
penalise me.

Different rules apply in Penalty Fares areas.

You're correct that elsewhere on National Rail, unless you're using a Season
Ticket, there's no penalty for asking for an upgrade in 1st Class from an
ordinary walk-on Standard ticket beyond the appropriate difference in fares.
That being said, the fares structure nowadays is so convoluted that - except
for an upgrade to Weekend First - it might be quite difficult working out
what you'd actually end up being asked to pay.

--
Walter Mann

Walter Mann wrote:

You're correct that elsewhere on National Rail, unless you're using a
Season Ticket, there's no penalty for asking for an upgrade in 1st Class
from an ordinary walk-on Standard ticket beyond the appropriate difference
in fares.

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference
between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares,
depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find
both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do
so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it
is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously
unpleasant to travel therein.

Neil

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference
between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares,
depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find
both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do
so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it
is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously
unpleasant to travel therein.

The context was paying on board, not upgrading in advance, which you
address, though your qualification "if there is a facility for doing so"
isn't specifically referred to in :

http://nationalrail.co.uk/system/gal...misc/NRCOC.pdf
[Condition 39]

which simply says that if you haven't done it an advance you are treated as
having no ticket.

In answer to the question "why", I can only assume it's a response to the
perceived risk of abuse.

--
Walter Mann

In message , at 10:16:39 on Sun, 21 Jan
2007, Joyce Whitchurch remarked:
As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train.

Although MML at weekends have been known to announce the availability of
their "Weekend First" upgrades, on the train, and collect the money
while doing the ticket check.

The reason is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the
train and many people would just chance it.


--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
Although MML at weekends have been known to announce the availability of
their "Weekend First" upgrades, on the train, and collect the money
while doing the ticket check.

One did that when we went to Chelmsford for V-festival. ISTR it wasn't
much either.

If the train is a service that always has a ticket check (like most
Inter-city services), I'd expect there to be a good chance I could
upgrade as fare evasion is, in theory, impossible.

However, on a suburban commuter route where the ticket checking is
usually at the station, it's obvious it would be abused. Therefore the
only logical solution is to issue a penalty fare, or introduce some
clever, and expensive, 'ticket by SMS' option that allows you to send a
text to upgrade or buy a ticket and get a reference number that can be
shown and confirmed - proving you did so when you boarded and not one
second before the RPI turned up! Seems like a lot of effort though!

Jonathan

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:16:39 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote:

Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason
is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and
many people would just chance it.

The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's
mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet
sites.


--
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com