On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Big programs are a bug."
-- Geoff Collyer

On Sat, 05 May 2007 02:47:09 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?

Yes, that was basically the point of the story. A TfL spokesperson is
quoted as saying that you can claim a refund of the £8 via the Oyster
helpline, or online.

He also says that in the case of major network disruptions, money is
automatically refunded. How does that work? Presumably it means that
the station staff at the affected station change a setting on the
gates so that the charge is never made in the first place, rather than
it actually being subsequently refunded (which would require the user
to specify a station to collect it).

On May 5, 3:54 am, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2007 02:47:09 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:
Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?

Yes, that was basically the point of the story. A TfL spokesperson is
quoted as saying that you can claim a refund of the £8 via the Oyster
helpline, or online.

He also says that in the case of major network disruptions, money is
automatically refunded. How does that work? Presumably it means that
the station staff at the affected station change a setting on the
gates so that the charge is never made in the first place, rather than
it actually being subsequently refunded (which would require the user
to specify a station to collect it).



I found that you can't claim a refund without registering with your
full name and address. In other words, if you've been caught in such
a situation, you have to choose between being ripped off for £8 and
having your movements tracked thereafter. Not good news if you prefer
not to register for the sake of privacy.

MIG wrote
[...]
I found that you can't claim a refund without registering with your
full name and address. In other words, if you've been caught in such
a situation, you have to choose between being ripped off for £8 and
having your movements tracked thereafter. Not good news if you prefer
not to register for the sake of privacy.

No, not "thereafter" since you can immediately turn in your card,
collect the deposit and get a new unregistered one.

Only your prior movements will thereafter be associated with you on Big
Brother Ken's database.

--
Mike D

asdf wrote:

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged.

No charge at all? That's very nice!

More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

You may recall that I've expressed strong opposition to the £4 charge.
My opinion has not changed!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Paul Corfield wrote:

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.

I didn't realize that.

Does that mean that, if I'm using an Oyster-based Travelcard, I won't be
charged extra as long as the entry and exit points are in my card's
valid zones? Or does the system recognize when there is no possible way
to get from entry to exit without passing through Z1 and charge extra
accordingly?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Wed, 09 May 2007 15:01:56 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

I think you're misunderstanding - we're talking about the current
situation (i.e. with PAYG *not* being valid on the NLL).

However, I'm not convinced that the system is really capable of
assuming a passenger's journey passed through different zones based on
whether they have a Travelcard season or not. According to the TfL
Farefinder, a PAYG single from Willesden Junction to Gunnersbury is
£1.00 at any time (i.e. a Z23 or Z34 journey), even though there's no
way to complete this journey by any routes on which PAYG is valid
without going via Z1.

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.

I didn't realize that.

Does that mean that, if I'm using an Oyster-based Travelcard, I won't be
charged extra as long as the entry and exit points are in my card's
valid zones? Or does the system recognize when there is no possible way
to get from entry to exit without passing through Z1 and charge extra
accordingly?

The latter. For example, if you have a Z45 Travelcard on your Oyster
and travel from High Barnet (Z5) to Morden (Z4), you would be charged
the Z123 fare.

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 15:01:56 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

It's the same risk as for PAYG users, is it not? (Think ahead to when
PAYG will be valid on the NLL.) So why are Travelcard users presumed to
be avoiding Z1 while PAYG users are presumed to be going through Z1 for
the exact same trip? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

I think you're misunderstanding

Could be! It's happened before.

- we're talking about the current
situation (i.e. with PAYG *not* being valid on the NLL).

But what will happen when PAYG becomes valid? Will Travelcard users
have to pay for Z1? Or will the rules be relaxed for everyone? Or will
Travelcard and PAYG users be held to different standards?

What happens currently on a Travelcard trip between Notting Hill Gate
and Acton Town? Upthread we determined that a PAYG trip is charged the
via-Z1 fare. But is a Z2-6 Travelcard valid for the same trip with no
extension charge?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Thu, 10 May 2007 10:26:39 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

What happens currently on a Travelcard trip between Notting Hill Gate
and Acton Town? Upthread we determined that a PAYG trip is charged the
via-Z1 fare. But is a Z2-6 Travelcard valid for the same trip with no
extension charge?

I reckon the answer is no - that the system always treats it as a Z123
journey, regardless of whether or not you have a Travelcard on your
Oyster (and what zones it's valid in). But we won't really know unless
someone actually tries it.