Can anyone please clarify a few points regarding the Stop and proceed
rule on LU? First how long does a train require to be held at a danger
signal before the rule is applied? Secondly does the driver need to
leave his/her seat to do whatever he/she needs to do to cancel the
trainstop device? Thirdly if the driver can see the preceding train
(let's assume it has failed) stopped at the next signal in advance,
does he/she still apply the rule and draw up (how close?) behind the
failed train or does the train behind the failure remain at the
previous signal (maybe until given specific instructions). Finally is
there a signal display which conveys the message "Don't Apply the Rule
at this Signal"? What I'm thinking of is if a signal in advance of a
junction stuck at red you wouldn't want the prospect of a driver
applying the rule and then being run into by a train on a conflicting
route.

Thanks in advance
gordon

In message .com,
" writes

Can anyone please clarify a few points regarding the Stop and proceed
rule on LU?

A lot of questions all in one here. Firstly there is no such thing as a
'Stop and Proceed rule' as such - well not in my rulebook anyway. It is
the rule(s) to be applied at Signals Remaining at Danger. Subtle
difference I know, but then small differences have caused accidents in
the past!

First how long does a train require to be held at a danger
signal before the rule is applied?

2 minutes, then he/she must obtain information.

(It is currently mooted that this will be extended to 3 minutes with an
announcement that 'we're just sat at a red signal chaps' to the
passengers within 30 secs, but that would confuse this discussion for
now.)

Secondly does the driver need to
leave his/her seat to do whatever he/she needs to do to cancel the
trainstop device?

It depends on the stock. Of the ones I'm aware of (73 Tube stock), yes.
The tripcock is reset by a button being held down on the opposite side
of the cab from the normal driving position. After resetting the trip,
the train will be then restricted to slow speed (less than 10 mph) for 3
minutes. This has the delightful name of SCAT (Speed Control After
Tripping); I'm sure there is someone out there with a dodgy sense of
humour making these up!

Thirdly if the driver can see the preceding train
(let's assume it has failed) stopped at the next signal in advance,
does he/she still apply the rule and draw up (how close?) behind the
failed train or does the train behind the failure remain at the
previous signal (maybe until given specific instructions).

The rule just states that you should obtain information.

If the information you receive is that there is a defective train ahead
and you should stay where you are, then that is what you do. If you are
unable to obtain *any* information, then the rulebook gives you
authority to trip past the signal (known as applying the rule) and
proceed at a speed "at which you can stop short of any obstruction", in
practice about 5 mph, but restricted as above A train ahead would count
as a pretty good obstruction I would think!

We're trained never to get more than about 5 metres from the train in
front unless you are doing a push-out (but then that's a whole different
question).

I do remember an incident when I was held for a long time in a platform,
when we had all the axle problems, and I was required to go into the
back cab. I was confronted with a train (and waving driver!) about 5
metres from my train who had 'applied the rule'.

Finally is
there a signal display which conveys the message "Don't Apply the Rule
at this Signal"? What I'm thinking of is if a signal in advance of a
junction stuck at red you wouldn't want the prospect of a driver
applying the rule and then being run into by a train on a conflicting
route.

No.

Driver's knowledge is that only an automatic (running) signal (those
generally numbered Axxx) can be passed at danger in this manner.
Semi-automatics (numbered after the IMR (Interlocking Machine Room) that
controls them and the lever number in the signal cabin eg. WR6) (such
as those protecting junctions or in other controlled areas) have a whole
set of extra rules attached which involve any points to be traversed
being secured (either physically by the means of scotches and clips or
being proved locked by a 'route secured' indication) and authority has
to be given by an Operating Official or Signalperson (either face to
face or over a signal telephone).

Then there is a further complication in that we also have things called
X-signals (usually numbered like WRX61, although we also have X855, ie
no IMR code) - these are normal Automatic signals but it has been
decided that they must be treated as semi-automatic in the event of any
failure. Just to add more fun to this, an X-signal can have an
illuminated 'A' associated with it which then turns it back into a
normal automatic signal whilst the A is lit!

And you think this train driving lark is easy!
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In article , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes
Driver's knowledge is that only an automatic (running) signal (those
generally numbered Axxx) can be passed at danger in this manner.

On parts of the Northern Line this is Sxxx instead; there was a signal
box coded A once upon a time.

Then there is a further complication in that we also have things called
X-signals (usually numbered like WRX61, although we also have X855, ie
no IMR code)

Also FXD855, meaning Floodgate protecting X signal on the District. The
numbers are usually taken from the automatic signal numbering sequence
(that is, X855 or FXD855 would lie between A853 and A857).

- these are normal Automatic signals but it has been decided that they
must be treated as semi-automatic in the event of any failure. Just to
add more fun to this, an X-signal can have an illuminated 'A'
associated with it which then turns it back into a normal automatic
signal whilst the A is lit!

The reason for X signals can be something to do with the interlocking.
For example, IIRC there is an X signal approaching Kennington on the
southbound Northern Line. If you passed it towards the station, then
under some circumstances your train will approach lock the pointwork for
some period of time, something that isn't desirable. So, although it
doesn't protect anything specific like a junction, the signal is made an
X signal so that you don't pass it until the signallers have everything
set up.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In article , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes
Driver's knowledge is that only an automatic (running) signal (those
generally numbered Axxx) can be passed at danger in this manner.

On parts of the Northern Line this is Sxxx instead; there was a signal
box coded A once upon a time.

Then there is a further complication in that we also have things
called X-signals (usually numbered like WRX61, although we also have
X855, ie no IMR code)

Also FXD855, meaning Floodgate protecting X signal on the District. The
numbers are usually taken from the automatic signal numbering sequence
(that is, X855 or FXD855 would lie between A853 and A857).

- these are normal Automatic signals but it has been decided that they
must be treated as semi-automatic in the event of any failure. Just
to add more fun to this, an X-signal can have an illuminated 'A'
associated with it which then turns it back into a normal automatic
signal whilst the A is lit!

The reason for X signals can be something to do with the interlocking.
For example, IIRC there is an X signal approaching Kennington on the
southbound Northern Line. If you passed it towards the station, then
under some circumstances your train will approach lock the pointwork
for some period of time, something that isn't desirable. So, although
it doesn't protect anything specific like a junction, the signal is
made an X signal so that you don't pass it until the signallers have
everything set up.

I knew all that I was just trying to keep things simple!
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Wed, 9 May 2007, Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In article , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes

Then there is a further complication in that we also have things called
X-signals (usually numbered like WRX61, although we also have X855, ie no
IMR code)

Also [snip]

I knew all that I was just trying to keep things simple!

This is utl - we don't hold with that here!

tom

--
The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid
are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell