wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:14 am, Mizter T wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
asdf wrote:

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard...

See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a
paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer
journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of
conclusion I like.

It's a pity you can't buy "paper" tickets with oyster.

Imagine going up to the ticket machine at WJ and clicking to buy an
all-zones travel card. Touching your oyster PAYG and you're done. The
travelcard is loaded onto the oyster card for the day.
(Obviously you'd actually need the paper ticket if you are going on
trains where the guards don't have oyster readers so maybe the machine
could (optionally?) print a paper ticket as well - "Only valid when
presented with oyster card whatever")

Tim.


First off, almost all ticket inspectors on trains in London do have
Oyster readers - including on the lines that don't accept Oyster PAYG.
Why? Because passengers might well have a Travelcard season loaded on
their Oyster card.

But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

Richmond-Stratford, anyone?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

Richmond-Stratford, anyone?

As I live just down the road from Stratford and do some research in Kew I
could give it a go if I didn't have my season already - anyone care to buy
me a ticket that doesn't cover zone 1?

On 12 Nov, 21:08, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:19:58 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

Richmond-Stratford, anyone?

Neil


If you up thread you'll see that's exactly the kind of issue I was
focussing on, specifically with reference to the North London Line.

You can extrapolate the Oyster routing assumptions made by querying
the TfL "Single Fare finder" facility - as a non-Z1 journey is charged
at £1 and a via Z1 journey is charged at £2.50 peak / £2 off-peak.

Richmond to as far as Caledonian Road & Barnesbury is defined as a non-
Z1 journey, whilst one stop further to Highbury & Islington is defined
as via Z1.

Meanwhile Stratford to Kensal Rise is defined as a non-Z1 journey,
whilst one stop further to Willesden Junction is defined as via Z1.

I genuinely wonder if there isn't an exception written in to the
system to cater for zone 2&3(&4) season Travelcards and journeys along
the NLL - otherwise a number of people making their normal NLL commute
today using a Z2&3 Travelcard loaded on an Oyster card would have been
in for a bit of a surprise today as the system would have attempted to
charge them the extra for a Z1 journey.

I am very curious about this, and I'd really like to know what is
actually happening on the ground (I might just do it to find out).

((delurks again))

On 12 Nov, 17:19, Mizter T wrote:

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

And that tricky issue will get trickier and trickier with every new
line that accepts PAYG. You've already mentioned the Stratford/
Richmond problem that comes from adding PAYG on the NLL. There are
probably others that we haven't spotted yet. (e.g. West Brompton?
And what happens when Shepherds Bush WLL finally opens?)

TfL were able to get away with implementing the current PAYG on the
Underground/DLR because the network was small enough that it didn't
throw up too many anomalies. As the system expands, more and more
exceptions have to be specifically identified and programmed into the
system.

I've said this before, and no-one beleived me, but the best way to
keep things simple is by abandoning the idea of all route-based fares
(including zones that you pass through on route). Instead fares could
be based on the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between the
journey's start and end points, no matter what route is taken. This
would solve all the zone-based and route-based anomalies, even the
ones that currently exist with paper tickets.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, wrote:

I've said this before, and no-one beleived me, but the best way to keep
things simple is by abandoning the idea of all route-based fares
(including zones that you pass through on route). Instead fares could
be based on the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between the
journey's start and end points, no matter what route is taken.

Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i have
to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i can
trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my fare;
how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put up
geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry tape
measures with them?

Your idea also throws out the financial incentive to avoid zone 1. Since
zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network, and a shift of passengers
to orbital routes is a key part of the strategy to deal with this, that
seems rather perverse.

tom

--
Imagine the damage done if they'd neglected the satsuma

On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
the passenger actually took.

But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

I agree that the preferable situation is for PAYG to just work
everywhere but I was just imagining a temporary measure.

Every out of zone station could have a machine whos only job is to put
a one day travel card onto a PAYG oyster card.

This will avoid the need to queue and surely must be faster than using
cash or card in the automatic machines.

===

I do notice that I can use PAYG from Watford Junction to Kensington
Olympia and it's only 4GBP. I might try that journey this Friday if
the strike is still on and it's not hissing it down with rain. Just a
shame there isn't a direct service between 06:05 and 07:18.

Tim.

On Nov 12, 5:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:14 am, Mizter T wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
asdf wrote:

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard...

See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a
paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer
journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of
conclusion I like.

It's a pity you can't buy "paper" tickets with oyster.

Imagine going up to the ticket machine at WJ and clicking to buy an
all-zones travel card. Touching your oyster PAYG and you're done. The
travelcard is loaded onto the oyster card for the day.
(Obviously you'd actually need the paper ticket if you are going on
trains where the guards don't have oyster readers so maybe the machine
could (optionally?) print a paper ticket as well - "Only valid when
presented with oyster card whatever")

Tim.

First off, almost all ticket inspectors on trains in London do have
Oyster readers - including on the lines that don't accept Oyster PAYG.
Why? Because passengers might well have a Travelcard season loaded on
their Oyster card.


Actually, I don't think that I've ever had my oyster read on any of
the ex-Silverlink routes. South West Trains (plus South Eastern) staff
certainly seem to have Oyster readers, but I don't think that the
Silverlink staff did. Every time my oyster has been inspected on the
silverlink main line services, I've just waved the card and there has
been no questions asked!! This was also true yesterday

Andy wrote:

Actually, I don't think that I've ever had my oyster read on any of
the ex-Silverlink routes. South West Trains (plus South Eastern) staff
certainly seem to have Oyster readers, but I don't think that the
Silverlink staff did. Every time my oyster has been inspected on the
silverlink main line services, I've just waved the card and there has
been no questions asked!! This was also true yesterday

I've had mine checked a few times by a man with an Oyster reader on the
GOBLIN.

On 13 Nov, 12:28, Tom Anderson wrote:

Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i have
to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i can
trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my fare;
how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put up
geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry tape
measures with them?

I assume you've got a rough idea of whether one place is further away
than another, just from glancing at a map. That should give you a
rough estimate of how much you should expect to pay.

Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and
others have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond
to Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it
does.)


Your idea also throws out the financial incentive to avoid zone 1. Since
zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network, and a shift of passengers
to orbital routes is a key part of the strategy to deal with this, that
seems rather perverse.

If "zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network", then clearly the
current system hasn't succeeded in keeping passengers out of it. But
then how could it? If you need to go into central London, then you
need to go into Z1. No amount of fare juggling will change that!

What we need to do is step back and look at the cause of the problem.
Why do so many people need to go into Z1 in the first place? And how
can we change that? How do we restructure London's geography away
from the traditional "centre vs. suburbs" structure that we're
currently stuck with? The current situation might work for somehwere
half London's size, but it's causing all the problems here!

The development of Docklands in the eighties & nineties was a step in
the right direction, but why hasn't it been followed up with similar
projects in South, West and North London? Possibly partly because the
current transport system and zonal structure is based on the "everyone
travels to-from central London" model, and it reinforces that concept
among travellers. The very name "Zone 1" helps to reinforce the idea
that the centre is a more prestigious and more desirable destination
than anywhere else.

The existence of Zone 1 isn't part of the solution. It's definitely
part of the problem.