On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, wrote:

On 13 Nov, 12:28, Tom Anderson wrote:

Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i
have to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i
can trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my
fare; how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put
up geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry
tape measures with them?

I assume you've got a rough idea of whether one place is further away
than another, just from glancing at a map. That should give you a rough
estimate of how much you should expect to pay.

Okay, so you are going to put geographical maps of the system in stations,
then. Good luck to passengers trying to find a central London station on
one!

Counting the zones isn't always reliable or accurate, as you and others
have pointed out in this thread. (The NLL route from Richmond to
Stratford doesn't go through zone one, but is priced as if it does.)

True, and that's a problem that should be solved, not a reason not to
count zones.

Your idea also throws out the financial incentive to avoid zone 1.
Since zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network, and a shift of
passengers to orbital routes is a key part of the strategy to deal with
this, that seems rather perverse.

If "zone 1 is the most congested bit of the network", then clearly the
current system hasn't succeeded in keeping passengers out of it.

Clearly, you can't say that without knowing how congested it would be if
there weren't discouraging fares - i suspect that it would be even worse.

But then how could it? If you need to go into central London, then you
need to go into Z1. No amount of fare juggling will change that!

The point is that if you don't need to go into central London, you don't
need to go into Z1, even though that would be one way to make your
journey. Richmond to Stratford via Mile End, or Earl's Court and Holborn,
vs the NLL.

What we need to do is step back and look at the cause of the problem.
Why do so many people need to go into Z1 in the first place? And how
can we change that? How do we restructure London's geography away from
the traditional "centre vs. suburbs" structure that we're currently
stuck with?

BZZZT! That's not how cities work. Try again.

The current situation might work for somehwere half London's size, but
it's causing all the problems here!

Tokyo seems to manage.

The development of Docklands in the eighties & nineties was a step in
the right direction, but why hasn't it been followed up with similar
projects in South, West and North London?

Maybe if you looked at one of these geographical maps of yours, you'd
notice that Docklands is actually rather close to the City - and on the
less-congested side of it. That proximity, i suspect, is a significant
part of why it's worked. If you set up a new financial district in, say
Shepherd's Bush (kick the BBC and the remaining industrial outfits out of
the area round White City, say), i think you'd have a hard time getting
anyone interested in putting skyscrapers in it. BICBW.

Possibly partly because the current transport system and zonal structure
is based on the "everyone travels to-from central London" model, and it
reinforces that concept among travellers. The very name "Zone 1" helps
to reinforce the idea that the centre is a more prestigious and more
desirable destination than anywhere else.

Possibly. It seems very unlikely to me - i think the fact that central
London is where all the things people want to go to are is what's
responsible. Do you have any evidence for your hypothesis? Can you
identify places in London which have become centres of activity purely
through being well-served by transport? Clapham Junction is probably doing
better than it would be without the junction, Stratford is apparently the
next Docklands (although again, proximity to the City is a factor here),
Finsbury Park and Old Oak Common remain resolutely skyscraper-free.

The existence of Zone 1 isn't part of the solution. It's definitely
part of the problem.

Frankly, a ludicrous claim.

tom

--
The literature, especially in recent years, has come to resemble `The
Blob', growing and consuming everything in its path, and Steve McQueen
isn't going to come to our rescue. -- The Mole

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message
, Colin
Rosenstiel writes

Which bus garage would it have been?

Waterden Road - formerly East London Buses, but then closed for the
Olympics redevelopment. But Stratford depot, which is still in use
and only just over the road, was evacuated.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...&date=&ttype=&
q=E15+2EE&ie=UTF8&ll=51.546234,-0.018528&spn=0.002309,0.004415&t=k&z
=18&om=1

I was thinking of its old LT name.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, wrote:

On 13 Nov, 12:28, Tom Anderson wrote:

Great, so now, to work out how much i'm going to pay for a ticket, i
have to know how far apart my start and end stations are. At present, i
can trace a line along a tube map marked with the zones to work out my
fare; how am i going to do it under your system? Are you going to put
up geographically accurate maps in stations, and suggest people carry
tape measures with them?

I assume you've got a rough idea of whether one place is further away
than another, just from glancing at a map. That should give you a rough
estimate of how much you should expect to pay.

Okay, so you are going to put geographical maps of the system in stations,
then. Good luck to passengers trying to find a central London station on
one!

Back in the 70s they used to have them. Think I still have a paper copy
somewhere.

[snip]

Maybe if you looked at one of these geographical maps of yours, you'd
notice that Docklands is actually rather close to the City - and on the
less-congested side of it. That proximity, i suspect, is a significant
part of why it's worked. If you set up a new financial district in, say
Shepherd's Bush (kick the BBC and the remaining industrial outfits out of
the area round White City, say), i think you'd have a hard time getting
anyone interested in putting skyscrapers in it. BICBW.

Well the BBC hopes you are wrong, their current intention is to close down
Television Centre and sell the site off for redevelopment. Incidentally
their way of justifying the closure is reminiscent of the way BR tried to
close the Settle and Carlisle.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote:





On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin
numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find
that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select
tickets for particular journeys.

I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day
Travelcard" and that is it.

Tim.

Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed
add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on
Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst
it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a
Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any
attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible.


But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was
equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort
while not accepted on National Rail?

Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.



Plus there would be no real, functional, benefit. Unless one wanted to
propose a horrendously confusing system where Day Travelcard holders
could travel out of their zones and be charged PAYG fares for the
excess, but (obviously) only on routes where PAYG is accepted. That
would be a total nightmare!

The day ticketing situation would be made far more confusing if your
'innovation' was implemented. Thankfully nobody at TfL is planning
anything of the sort.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Waterden Road bus garage

I was thinking of its old LT name.

It never had one - it was opened in 2004 and is, AIUI, just a derelict
factory site obtained on a short lease prior to the Olympic
redevelopment. I have a recollection that the first bendy-buses were
stabled there for a while. Hmm ... there wasn't still one there when the
fire started, was there?
--
Paul Terry

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:00:10 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Which bus garage would it have been?

Waterden Road - formerly East London Buses, but then closed for the
Olympics redevelopment. But Stratford depot, which is still in use and
only just over the road, was evacuated.

Waterden Road is not yet closed. The route 25 bendies still run from it.
Staff and vehicles from SD transferred there for the duration of the
incident with a bus being used as a temporary "cash room" for buses
coming in from service.

Apparently it will be closed - along with SD and First's H garage -
before the end of the year.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into
platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could
see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an
unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that
time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might
become a very popular train ;-)


Bushey is fairly easy as Southern trains don't stop there, so PAYG
won't be valid on any trains from the main line platforms. There is a
validator on platform 17 at Euston, however.

MIG wrote:

On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote:

On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin
numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find
that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select
tickets for particular journeys.

I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day
Travelcard" and that is it.

Tim.

Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed
add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on
Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst
it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a
Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any
attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible.


But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was
equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort
while not accepted on National Rail?

It's was a bit more of a complex judgement than that. Basically, the
posters in question didn't ever explicitly say that Oyster PAYG was
equivalent to a Day Travelcard, but they were found to be misleading
in that someone could interpret them as such.

The full ASA judgement can be read he
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati...ation_id=40497

Nonetheless what you said doesn;t challenge my fundamental point that
it would be incredibly confusing for both daily price capping and a
Day Travelcard to both be available on Oyster.


Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.


But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

OK, so you could pass through ticket gates a bit easier - not a good
enough reason.

The only other thing I can think of is if you wanted to leave open the
possibility for making out-of-zone journeys and use AYG to pay for
them - i.e. someone buys a Z1&2 Day Travelcard on Oyster, and suddenly
later in the day decides they want to go out to Heathrow, so they can
and the excess is paid for via PAYG. But this gets more complicated -
would the persons card then be subject to price capping as well, so
they could end up having a Z2-6 cap on there as well as a Z1&2 Day
Travelcard? Let's say they wanted to go to East Croydon - they would
not be able to do that by using PAYG to pay for the extension, so
they'd need to buy a paper ticket extension.

It's all far too complicated and totally unnecessary. When buying a
Day Travelcard at the beginning of their travels a passenger needs to
consider what zones they'll be going through on that day. With Oyster
PAYG they don't. TOCs are the ones who should realise that people like
being spontaneous and hence they should pull their fingers out and
start accepting Oyster PAYG - then all passengers, whether they travel
by National Rail, Tube, DLR, tram or bus would all benefit from daily
price capping.

Matthew Dickinson wrote:

This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into
platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could
see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an
unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that
time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might
become a very popular train ;-)


Bushey is fairly easy as Southern trains don't stop there, so PAYG
won't be valid on any trains from the main line platforms. There is a
validator on platform 17 at Euston, however.

What's the situation at Bushey - are there gates? If so are all the
platforms within the gateline?

The Oyster reader on a column at Euston near to platforms 16-18 is
there to cater for London Midland trains that use those platforms at
rush hour (and maybe also late at night , I dunno). Oyster PAYG is
however only valid as far as Harrow & Wealdstone on the fast London
Midland trains (a situation inherited from Silverlink).

On Nov 15, 1:16 am, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Nov 14, 10:53 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote:

On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin
numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find
that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select
tickets for particular journeys.

I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day
Travelcard" and that is it.

Tim.

Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed
add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on
Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst
it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a
Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any
attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible.

But didn't TfL get done by advertising standards for claiming PAYG was
equivalent to travelcards, because it's clearly nothing of the sort
while not accepted on National Rail?

It's was a bit more of a complex judgement than that. Basically, the
posters in question didn't ever explicitly say that Oyster PAYG was
equivalent to a Day Travelcard, but they were found to be misleading
in that someone could interpret them as such.

The full ASA judgement can be read hehttp://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati...djudication+De...

Nonetheless what you said doesn;t challenge my fundamental point that
it would be incredibly confusing for both daily price capping and a
Day Travelcard to both be available on Oyster.



Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.

But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

OK, so you could pass through ticket gates a bit easier - not a good
enough reason.


So you don't have to arrive at Watford Junction at least half an hour
early for your train so you can buy a ticket. If you absolutely must
catch a particular train (e.g. you're catching a mainline train from
KX) then you need to allow 45 minutes. (Most of the time you get
served within about 15 mins but every now and again there is somebody
at the only window that is open planning their "lets visit every
mainline station in the UK" journey.

I'd be happy if I could buy the ODTC online on my oyster ahead of
arriving at WJ. I wouldn't even mind if I couldn't use my PAYG balance
to pay for it. And if I do want to go out of the travelcard zones I
wouldn't mind getting charged the PAYG journey I've just made (i.e.
from start to finish, not boundary Z6 to finish). After all, at the
moment if I've got a paper travelcard and want to do that I'll have to
remember to use PAYG to enter otherwise I'll get the 4GBP unresolved
journey and no cap. With everything on oyster I can't forget to do
that.

Infact, what I'd really like is to be able to put ANY ticket onto my
oyster. I'm going to Durham, I get my tickets sent through the post.
Why not just have them put on my oyster instead. Of course, this isn't
practical at the moment because neither the trains or the stations are
set up to handle oyster but that excuse doesn't hold for WJ.

The only other thing I can think of is if you wanted to leave open the
possibility for making out-of-zone journeys and use AYG to pay for
them - i.e. someone buys a Z1&2 Day Travelcard on Oyster, and suddenly
later in the day decides they want to go out to Heathrow, so they can
and the excess is paid for via PAYG.

So someone decides to go around Z1&2 on their oyster and then suddenly
decides they want to go out to WJ. They can't buy a boundary Z2 to WJ
extension to use with a PAYG oyster.

I don't understand why anybody would want to buy a Z1&2 day travelcard
on PAYG given that you already have that option (infact slightly
cheaper) by using price capping. The only thing I can think of that
would change there is that you wouldn't get a 4GBP fare if you didn't
touch in or out somewhere.

But I'm really only talking about people starting at WJ. People
starting at Watford High street through Hatch End will probably take
the DC line to H&W so oyster already works for them. I suppose WHS
people might decide to go North to WJ and then take the fast train
which presumably would be allowed if PAYG oyster was accepted on the
fast train but not with a WHS travelcard.

Tim.