MIG wrote:

If they misjudge, they block the [box] junction. If they judge
correctly (or overcompensate), they will often have to wait through
another cycle of lights even though a double decker (or whatever
vehicle is trapped behind) could have legitimately gone through and
reached the next bus stop while the bendy is now stuck at the next
red.

While a long vehicle is waiting for a big enough gap on the other side of
the box junction, a short vehicle waiting next to the long one can cut
diagonally across the box and take the short space. If this happens
repeatedly, the long vehicle can be stuck for a while. I have witnessed this
happen. I believe changing lane in a box junction should be illegal and the
box junction cameras should be altered to catch it (are they automatic?)

On May 16, 1:03*am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
MIG wrote:

If they misjudge, they block the [box] junction. *If they judge
correctly (or overcompensate), they will often have to wait through
another cycle of lights even though a double decker (or whatever
vehicle is trapped behind) could have legitimately gone through and
reached the next bus stop while the bendy is now stuck at the next
red.

While a long vehicle is waiting for a big enough gap on the other side of
the box junction, a short vehicle waiting next to the long one can cut
diagonally across the box and take the short space. If this happens
repeatedly, the long vehicle can be stuck for a while. I have witnessed this
happen. I believe changing lane in a box junction should be illegal and the
box junction cameras should be altered to catch it (are they automatic?)

It's not always box junctions though. That's why I mentioned the
Highway Code, according to which you shouldn't go through any green
light unless there is somewhere to go, nor stop on a zebra crossing
etc.

I think that there are stronger powers of enforcement if it's also a
box junction, but someone will know in more detail ...

On 15 May, 00:10, "Ivor Jones" wrote:
,
Chris Read typed, for some strange, unexplained
reason:: "MIG" wrote:

:
: Chris Read wrote:
:
: He also said that bus passengers and operators like the bendies -
: it's other
: road users (ie cabbies and cyclists, I guess) who detest them.
:
: No, he is just wrong. *Most passengers don't like them either, and I
: can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
: more for coping with them.
:
: I like them, but I'm primarily a 'Red Arrow' user, for which routes
: they are well suited. I haven't noticed a huge clamour to bring back
: the Leyland Nationals with plastic seats.

A mate I used to work with once had an ex-LT National, he used to take it
to shows; I quite liked driving it, shove it in 2nd and right foot down,
away it went. Put it in first and all your passengers ended up on the back
seat ;-)

: IIRC, the drivers are paid more.

Not always, certainly not in the West Midlands.

: And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
: by them.
:
: Hardly any drivers observe crossing courtesies in London. In my view,
: bendy drivers are amongst the smoothest and most courteous of bus
: drivers in London.
:
: But why should we accept that the choice is between bendys and
: Routemasters? *I'm sure I remember a few generations of other designs
: in between and since ...
:
: Agreed. But no more Tridents, please........

I'm sure I'm going to regret saying this, but why..? From a driver's point
of view, I quite like the Tridents. They're certainly better than a lot of
the alternatives, particularly the Volvo B7's which I detest with a
passion.

Ivor

I much prefer B7s to drive than Tridents. For me the only plus point
of a Trident is the better acceleration. The new Tridents (Enviro
400s) we have at Walsall garage had more rattles and squeaks to annoy
you when driving them after 3 weeks than the Wright Gemini bodied B7s
they replaced on the 997 did after 3 years.

As for driving Bendibuses I find them easier to drive than a 12m long
rigid single decker as they don't have the large rear overhangs you
have to look out for on tight corners. The Mercedes Citaro bendis are
certainly lovely buses to drive. The Scanias were also nice to drive
when they were new, but I haven't driven these for about 3 years and
the drivers are saying they are getting "tired" now

Tony

In ,
Neil Williams typed, for some strange,
unexplained reason:
: On Thu, 15 May 2008 08:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
: wrote:
:
: Thats down to bad drivers, not the bus itself. Using that logic all
: HGVs should be replaced by 7.5 tonners. As an occasional bus user I
: much prefer bendy buses - they're easy to get on and off and theres
: usually plenty of room. Not so on a double decker trying to scoop up
: the same amount of people and thats before you have to worry about
: old grannies trying to clamber up and down the hopelessly narrow
: stairway.
:
: MX of deckers is that the grannies sit downstairs, leaving upstairs
: free for those wishing to travel a long way and sit down. The
: Wrightbus design with the upstairs extractor fan is by far the best
: design in London, and I hope that (barring any special design for
: Boris) this becomes the standard. The East Lancs variety (favoured by
: Transdev) aren't quite as nice, and the Dennis Enviro just feels cheap
: and crap (like most Dennis products, it would seem).
:
: Neil

The problem with deckers in a lot of areas is that's where the yobs tend
to congregate, usually at the back. It's dirtier and smellier up there, as
there are chip wrappers and drinks cans all over the place and more
graffiti than you can shake a stick at.

There are more robberies at the back of the upper deck than anywhere else
on a bus. Why anyone (except the yobs) sit there is beyond me..!

Ivor

On Fri, 16 May 2008 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I much prefer B7s to drive than Tridents. For me the only plus point
of a Trident is the better acceleration. The new Tridents (Enviro
400s) we have at Walsall garage had more rattles and squeaks to annoy
you when driving them after 3 weeks than the Wright Gemini bodied B7s
they replaced on the 997 did after 3 years.

I live on a route usually run with Enviro 400s - they're stupidly
noisy and usually come with a dodgy exhaust or whistling turbo

On Sat, 17 May 2008 00:07:58 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
wrote:

The problem with deckers in a lot of areas is that's where the yobs tend
to congregate, usually at the back. It's dirtier and smellier up there, as
there are chip wrappers and drinks cans all over the place and more
graffiti than you can shake a stick at.

This is true. One design a while ago tried to discourage this by
fitting hard plastic seats at the back and comfortable padded ones
elsewhere. As I've not seen it since, I assume it was not successful.

The smell is avoided to some extent by the extractor fans fitted to
newer London deckers (which also works very well to avoid other smells
and to avoid steaming up in winter).

There are more robberies at the back of the upper deck than anywhere else
on a bus. Why anyone (except the yobs) sit there is beyond me..!

If the front seat is taken and it has facing seats at the back, it's
where I usually sit, for the legroom...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In ,
Neil Williams typed, for some strange,
unexplained reason:
: On Sat, 17 May 2008 00:07:58 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
: wrote:
:
: The problem with deckers in a lot of areas is that's where the yobs
: tend to congregate, usually at the back. It's dirtier and smellier
: up there, as there are chip wrappers and drinks cans all over the
: place and more graffiti than you can shake a stick at.
:
: This is true. One design a while ago tried to discourage this by
: fitting hard plastic seats at the back and comfortable padded ones
: elsewhere. As I've not seen it since, I assume it was not successful.
:
: The smell is avoided to some extent by the extractor fans fitted to
: newer London deckers (which also works very well to avoid other smells
: and to avoid steaming up in winter).
:
: There are more robberies at the back of the upper deck than anywhere
: else on a bus. Why anyone (except the yobs) sit there is beyond me..!
:
: If the front seat is taken and it has facing seats at the back, it's
: where I usually sit, for the legroom...

Hmm, facing seats, another of my pet hates. People will insist on putting
their feet up on the seats opposite, why they can't leave them on the
floor where they belong is beyond me.

Ivor

"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

No, he is just wrong. Most passengers don't like them either, and I
can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
more for coping with them.

Operators may like the idea of not having to collect fares, but that
is independent of the shape of the bus.

And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
by them.

Constantly? Where?

Personally, they're just a bloody bus, I don't detest or like them any
more than any other bus and regard the way whole furore became the only
transport issue ever debated as completely inexplicable.

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years, but bendies serving
intensive routes may tire faster

Or more likely, London rejects will be inflicted on places like Leeds,
Glasgow, Manchester, etc., as has happened with double deckers when Ken &
successor decide they are too old for London.

Bevan

On Sat, 17 May 2008 20:14:58 +0100, "Bevan Price"
meVIAfreeukFULLSTOPcom wrote:


"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years, but bendies serving
intensive routes may tire faster

Or more likely, London rejects will be inflicted on places like Leeds,
Glasgow, Manchester, etc., as has happened with double deckers when Ken &
successor decide they are too old for London.

Very unlikely as none of them are owned by the big groups so they won't
cascade via that route. They are all leased and may end up almost
anywhere but given the three door layout it's most probable they'll end
up doing airport transfers or similar. If they can be converted to two
door then they may have more utility for other UK operators.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Very unlikely as none of them are owned by the big groups so they won't
cascade via that route. They are all leased and may end up almost
anywhere but given the three door layout it's most probable they'll end
up doing airport transfers or similar. If they can be converted to two
door then they may have more utility for other UK operators.

Hmm, good point. The leasing companies will presumably expect to be
compensated if you want to hand them back early, unless they've been
remiss with the contracts (particularly given that right-hand-drive
Citaro Gs aren't in huge demand, so finding an alternative user is
problematic). Therefore you have the possibility of a Mayor elected on
a platform of better financial control spending money to return a leased
bus fleet early and then spending more money replacing it with more
labour-intensive hardware that costs more to run, purely because of his
personal antipathy to the design.

Have I missed anything? Obviously it would be nice to know who's signed
up to what (TfL presumably signed something saying we'll have x number
of buses for y years at z pounds/year but the details may be important)
but I doubt anyone will tell us.

Tom