On May 14, 11:16*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 14 May 2008, MIG wrote:
On May 14, 8:53*pm, "Chris Read" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote:

Read in the Lite today that Moir Lockhead is warning Boris about the
plan to reintroduce Routemasters - and is trying to peddle him the
"ftr", which is, umm, a glorified bendy bus.

He also said that bus passengers and operators like the bendies - it's other
road users (ie cabbies and cyclists, I guess) who detest them.

No, he is just wrong. *Most passengers don't like them either,

Surveys say otherwise.

Surveys generally prove what they are designed to prove. Bendy buses
are claimed to increase capacity, although I think that claims for
standing capacity must be based on how many people sized dummies could
be crammed into the volume, rather than whether the space is usable by
real people who need to splay out their legs to balance etc.

But presumably, if people are asked if they want more capacity and say
"yes" they are claimed to be in favour of bendy buses.

If they were asked if they prefer to stand for the duration of their
bus ride they might not say "yes".

My limited survey is based on people I've talked to, which does
include at least one who likes them because of they way they deal with
bus queues.

Is it so impossible to take the features of bendy buses that are
perceived to be good, and consider whether they could be incorporated
in a design with more seats that doesn't block crossings and junctions
and create such a safety hazard?

Like is it really necessary to have one-way doors on straight buses
but not on bendy buses, now that paying by cash on the bus, rightly or
wrongly, has been pretty much phased out?

On Wed, 14 May 2008 15:55:36 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote in
,
seen in uk.transport.buses:

[...]
If they were asked if they prefer to stand for the duration of their
bus ride they might not say "yes".

I'm not honestly sure about this one.

I've not travelled on many bendies in London, but I've noticed a
tendency (as on the tube) for people to stand rather than sit if
they're only going one or two stops, even if there are plenty of seats
available - and I'm not referring to standing rather than sitting next
to someone, but to standing rather than having a pair of seats to
oneself.

I think the truth is that human behaviour is far too complex for any
simplistic survey (or Usenet thread!) to encompass.

--
Ross.
* Opinions are my own; my employer has disowned me again.
* Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my first name to e-mail me.

AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for rail enthusiast tours in Europe

In ,
Chris Read typed, for some strange, unexplained
reason:
: "MIG" wrote:
:
: Chris Read wrote:
:
: He also said that bus passengers and operators like the bendies -
: it's other
: road users (ie cabbies and cyclists, I guess) who detest them.
:
: No, he is just wrong. Most passengers don't like them either, and I
: can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
: more for coping with them.
:
: I like them, but I'm primarily a 'Red Arrow' user, for which routes
: they are well suited. I haven't noticed a huge clamour to bring back
: the Leyland Nationals with plastic seats.

A mate I used to work with once had an ex-LT National, he used to take it
to shows; I quite liked driving it, shove it in 2nd and right foot down,
away it went. Put it in first and all your passengers ended up on the back
seat ;-)

: IIRC, the drivers are paid more.

Not always, certainly not in the West Midlands.

: And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
: by them.
:
: Hardly any drivers observe crossing courtesies in London. In my view,
: bendy drivers are amongst the smoothest and most courteous of bus
: drivers in London.
:
: But why should we accept that the choice is between bendys and
: Routemasters? I'm sure I remember a few generations of other designs
: in between and since ...
:
: Agreed. But no more Tridents, please........

I'm sure I'm going to regret saying this, but why..? From a driver's point
of view, I quite like the Tridents. They're certainly better than a lot of
the alternatives, particularly the Volvo B7's which I detest with a
passion.

Ivor

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

Read in the Lite today that Moir Lockhead is warning Boris about the
plan to reintroduce Routemasters - and is trying to peddle him the
"ftr", which is, umm, a glorified bendy bus.

Will First never learn? In my experience, their buses in London are
some of the oldest, dirtiest and most poorly-maintained. Not a good
start.

Don't First run one of the Routemaster heritage routes?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , says...
Recliner wrote:
While we're not
likely to get anything that resembles a good old RM (unless he
actually gets some of them back from the scrapyard)

Whose idea was it to paint an RM in brown and silver (RM 1933 IIRC)? I saw
it today and nearly vomited!



Yes, appropriately RM1933, as it's 75 years since the formation of the
London Passenger Transport Board. The special livery also commemorates
the opening of Bow Garage 100 years ago [as a tram depot]. Maybe the
brown livery relates to the North Metropolitan Tramways colours.

It may be of interest to note that Bow Garage is having a open day on
Saturday 28th June.

On Wed, 14 May 2008 15:55:36 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

Like is it really necessary to have one-way doors on straight buses
but not on bendy buses, now that paying by cash on the bus, rightly or
wrongly, has been pretty much phased out?

One way doors on a small bus works very well, IMO.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On May 15, 6:12*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 14 May 2008 15:55:36 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
Like is it really necessary to have one-way doors on straight buses
but not on bendy buses, now that paying by cash on the bus, rightly or
wrongly, has been pretty much phased out?

One way doors on a small bus works very well, IMO.

The smallest buses only have one door, so it has to be two-way, as
they are on bendys. But recently I experienced a delay because
someone, probably used to bendys etc, had taken a buggy into the back
door of a straight bus (direct to the available space instead of
forcing it through a crowd) and the driver wanted the mother to fight
through to the front before proceeding.

Ross wrote:

I've not travelled on many bendies in London, but I've noticed a
tendency (as on the tube) for people to stand rather than sit if
they're only going one or two stops, even if there are plenty of seats
available - and I'm not referring to standing rather than sitting next
to someone, but to standing rather than having a pair of seats to
oneself.

I must admit to doing that on both deckers and bendies, especially if
carrying any kind of rucksack or similar (which I usually am) as it
saves, on a quiet bus, having to remove it.

Neil

MIG wrote:
Surveys generally prove what they are designed to prove. Bendy buses
are claimed to increase capacity, although I think that claims for
standing capacity must be based on how many people sized dummies could
be crammed into the volume, rather than whether the space is usable by
real people who need to splay out their legs to balance etc.


In what sense does this differ from Underground trains with transverse
seating, the Overground 378s (ditto) and modern light rail vehicles like
Tramlink's (quoted capacity 208, which certainly isn't all seated)?
It's something of a mistake to see bendy buses as merely a bigger bus,
they're more akin to large-scale people movers where some standing at
peak times is designed in, in return for speed of pickup/setdown.

Tom

On 15 May, 09:16, Tom Barry wrote:
MIG wrote:
Surveys generally prove what they are designed to prove. *Bendy buses
are claimed to increase capacity, although I think that claims for
standing capacity must be based on how many people sized dummies could
be crammed into the volume, rather than whether the space is usable by
real people who need to splay out their legs to balance etc.

In what sense does this differ from Underground trains with transverse
seating, the Overground 378s (ditto) and modern light rail vehicles like
Tramlink's (quoted capacity 208, which certainly isn't all seated)?
It's something of a mistake to see bendy buses as merely a bigger bus,
they're more akin to large-scale people movers where some standing at
peak times is designed in, in return for speed of pickup/setdown.

Doesn't differ at all. The design of the 376s is rubbish. Well, in
parts. The wider gangway is good, because 2 + 3 seating is not very
effective, but the space around the doors is appallingly designed and
pretty much unusable. Similarly on the Jubilee line.

In the meantime, the refurbished 455s on SWT are an example of
sensible design, with the same intention, as I've mentioned before.

But I strongly question the assumption that volume of space
corresponds to the number of people that can actually use the space.

Compare Northern and Jubilee lines. On the Northern you have two
people sitting in the space where only one person can stand on the
Jubilee, because using the flip seats doesn't require the top half of
your body to meet obstructions higher up or for you to lean on a
seated person's head.