On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, MIG wrote:

On 19 Nov, 17:07, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 19 Nov, 16:37, wrote:

I did wonder whether I could touch-in at the Liverpool St gatelines,
and then just leave the journey unresolved as it was the last journey
I intended to make that day.

You get charged £4 when you touch in, even if you've already reached
your cap. This gets reverted to zero when you touch out. The
intermediate validator trick works because it refunds the £4 without
marking you as having touched out.

The way to do it on your journey would be to take the Central Line to
Stratford, touch one of the validators on the platform and take the
direct Stratford-Stansted service to Harlow. You will be defrauding
NXEA of the Stratford-Tottenham fare, of course.

It shouldn't be anything to do with fraud. It ought to be possible to
get the appropriate fare without doing ridiculous things like getting
off during the journey, particularly if the service is infrequent. This
is only going to get worse and I don't understand why it isn't being
addressed.

I think the strict answer is that the appropriate fare for a journey from
Liverpool Street to Harlow for the holder of a Z1-4 PAYG cap *is* the
price of a single from Liverpool Street to Harlow. A PAYG cap is not a
travelcard, and doesn't entitle you to tickets from a zone boundary.
Rather, it's a form of special offer from TfL - spend a certain amount on
travel on their network, get the rest free.

Consider that if you have a Z12 travelcard, you would be perfectly
entitled to enter the TfL network at Langdon Park and exit it at Finsbury
Park without touching in or out (both stations beingungated, so this is
physically possible). But if you had a PAYG card with a Z12 cap, AIUI, you
wouldn't - you still have to touch in and out, even though you won't be
charged for the trip.

Now, you could certainly argue that the rules *should* allow you to buy
boundary zone tickets on top of a PAYG cap, and if they did, that there
should be a way to use it. But that's a different story.

tom

--
uk.local groups TO BE RENAMED uk.lunatic.fringe groups

Tom Anderson wrote:

I think the strict answer is that the appropriate fare for a journey
from Liverpool Street to Harlow for the holder of a Z1-4 PAYG cap *is*
the price of a single from Liverpool Street to Harlow. A PAYG cap is not
a travelcard, and doesn't entitle you to tickets from a zone boundary.
Rather, it's a form of special offer from TfL - spend a certain amount
on travel on their network, get the rest free.

But capping is valid everywhere that PAYG is accepted, which includes
both TfL and non-TfL services - including a portion of the OP's route.
--
David of Broadway
temporarily in Paris
then back in New York

On Nov 19, 6:48*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, MIG wrote:
On 19 Nov, 17:07, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 19 Nov, 16:37, wrote:

I did wonder whether I could touch-in at the Liverpool St gatelines,
and then just leave the journey unresolved as it was the last journey
I intended to make that day.

You get charged £4 when you touch in, even if you've already reached
your cap. This gets reverted to zero when you touch out. The
intermediate validator trick works because it refunds the £4 without
marking you as having touched out.

The way to do it on your journey would be to take the Central Line to
Stratford, touch one of the validators on the platform and take the
direct Stratford-Stansted service to Harlow. You will be defrauding
NXEA of the Stratford-Tottenham fare, of course.

It shouldn't be anything to do with fraud. *It ought to be possible to
get the appropriate fare without doing ridiculous things like getting
off during the journey, particularly if the service is infrequent. This
is only going to get worse and I don't understand why it isn't being
addressed.

I think the strict answer is that the appropriate fare for a journey from
Liverpool Street to Harlow for the holder of a Z1-4 PAYG cap *is* the
price of a single from Liverpool Street to Harlow. A PAYG cap is not a
travelcard, and doesn't entitle you to tickets from a zone boundary.
Rather, it's a form of special offer from TfL - spend a certain amount on
travel on their network, get the rest free.

Consider that if you have a Z12 travelcard, you would be perfectly
entitled to enter the TfL network at Langdon Park and exit it at Finsbury
Park without touching in or out (both stations beingungated, so this is
physically possible). But if you had a PAYG card with a Z12 cap, AIUI, you
wouldn't - you still have to touch in and out, even though you won't be
charged for the trip.

Now, you could certainly argue that the rules *should* allow you to buy
boundary zone tickets on top of a PAYG cap, and if they did, that there
should be a way to use it. But that's a different story.

The other side of the "special offer" is that TfL want to encourage
people to use Oyster, which will ultimately reduce costs,
automatically collect more money and give them comprehensive data
about travel patterns.

People who won't use Oyster get punished for not cooperating*. Maybe
that's fair enough.

But people who are cooperating with what TfL wants, and are using
Oyster for the part of the journey that they can use it for, can't be
persuaded to do any more by being punished. It's more likely to be
counterproductive and leave them feeling ripped off.


*By being charged cash penalty fares way above what cash fares would
have increased to by now.

On 19 Nov, 21:47, David of Broadway
wrote:
But capping is valid everywhere that PAYG is accepted, which includes
both TfL and non-TfL services - including a portion of the OP's route.

But you are perfectly entitled to use the cap to get to TTK. What you
can't do is use it to get a discount on the long distance fare, which
is what not getting off the train amounts to.

U

Mr Thant wrote:

On 19 Nov, 21:47, David of Broadway
wrote:
But capping is valid everywhere that PAYG is accepted, which includes
both TfL and non-TfL services - including a portion of the OP's route.

But you are perfectly entitled to use the cap to get to TTK. What you
can't do is use it to get a discount on the long distance fare, which
is what not getting off the train amounts to.

I was merely replying to Mr. Anderson's suggestion that capping is a
special offer for TfL services. In fact, capping is available
everywhere that PAYG is offered, TfL and non-TfL alike, as long as the
entire trip is available on PAYG.
--
David of Broadway

On Nov 20, 6:54*am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Mr Thant wrote:
On 19 Nov, 21:47, David of Broadway
wrote:
But capping is valid everywhere that PAYG is accepted, which includes
both TfL and non-TfL services - including a portion of the OP's route.

But you are perfectly entitled to use the cap to get to TTK. What you
can't do is use it to get a discount on the long distance fare, which
is what not getting off the train amounts to.

I was merely replying to Mr. Anderson's suggestion that capping is a
special offer for TfL services. *In fact, capping is available
everywhere that PAYG is offered, TfL and non-TfL alike, as long as the
entire trip is available on PAYG.

I think that capping is a distraction here. There is a far greater
and more general problem of having to get off trains to use Oyster to
avoid paying the excessive fares that are applied to punish people who
use cash where PAYG is valid.

Or are we going to have a situation where the cash fare from just
outside London will be dramatically cheaper than the cash fare for the
part of the route on which PAYG is accepted?

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 06:49:10AM -0800, MIG wrote:

It's a general problem which is going to get worse as PAYG is
extended, but there doesn't seem to be any interest in resolving it

So, anyone still think that Oyster was thought through properly and
actually designed as a system instead of just "ooh, shiny!"?

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

On 19 Nov, 17:55, MIG wrote:
*It ought to be possible to
get the appropriate fare without doing ridiculous things like getting
off during the journey,

I occasionally have to travel from Fulwel to Barons Court during the
morming peak.
I have found the cheapest way is to buy a single from Fulwel to
Gunnersbury and make sure I am by the right door when I arrive there,
so I can hop off, touch my Oyster in on the platform validator, and
hop back on the same train again to go onwards to Barons Court. I've
never been left behind yet (although I do end up standing the rest of
the way).

Jon

On Nov 20, 2:14*pm, Jon wrote:
On 19 Nov, 17:55, MIG wrote:
**It ought to be possible to

get the appropriate fare without doing ridiculous things like getting
off during the journey,

I occasionally have to travel from Fulwel to Barons Court during the
morming peak.
I have found the cheapest way is to buy a single from Fulwel to
Gunnersbury and make sure I am by the right door when I arrive there,
so I can hop off, touch my Oyster in on the platform validator, and
hop back on the same train again to go onwards to Barons Court. I've
never been left behind yet (although I do end up standing the rest of
the way).

Jon

Most of LU doesn't have platform validators, unfortunately, and if it
became normal, there would probably be safety implications to everyone
jumping off. Is the Gunnersbury one a legacy from before LO where one
might have changed trains from non-Oyster to Oyster?

Strange that there is generally better provision for people changing
trains than for people staying on the same train.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:14:30 -0800 (PST),
Jon wrote:
On 19 Nov, 17:55, MIG wrote:
*It ought to be possible to
get the appropriate fare without doing ridiculous things like getting
off during the journey,

I occasionally have to travel from Fulwel to Barons Court during the
morming peak.
I have found the cheapest way is to buy a single from Fulwel to
Gunnersbury and make sure I am by the right door when I arrive there,
so I can hop off, touch my Oyster in on the platform validator, and
hop back on the same train again to go onwards to Barons Court. I've
never been left behind yet (although I do end up standing the rest of
the way).

This is something that the recently released oyster "hack" might
support. It might be possible to record the "entry" on your card at home
before you even set off. (It depends a lot on how much the system
depends on the validators always being connected and how any audit
systems deal with a card that appears to have a missing touch via the
validator but the touch is recorded on the card)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/