On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, John B wrote:

On Nov 25, 5:31*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
That's the only explanation I can think of for how they could have
deployed a system with so many obvious design flaws.

Because *obviously* it wouldn't have been pushed through far too quickly
for mere political expediency!

We should have another utl meet, this time with a tinfoil hat making
workshop.

This. Also, is Oyster valid for travel in black helicopters?

[summary of Oyster threads:

A: "if I try and do something arcane and weird, Oyster is only
slightly easier and cheaper than paper tickets instead of
substantially easier and cheaper, therefore TfL are evil"

B: "No, because [sensible explanation]".

A: "Get lost, you're a Ken/Boris apologist and TfL are evil and I
should be allowed to do whatever I want whenever I want, waa waa waa"

B: "You're an idiot".

A: "Aha, personal abuse, you've lost the argument!".

[fx: sinister TfL secret police TfL track A down using his Oyster
details, and force him to ride from Stratford to Richmond on the
Overground whilst being charged for a fare via z1 FOREVER!!!]

Except ... WHEN THERE ARE ENGINEERING WORKS IN THE HAMPSTEAD TUNNEL AREA!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!

tom

--
Brace yourself for an engulfing, cowardly autotroph! I want your
photosynthetic apparatii!

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

"Andrew Heenan" wrote in message
...
"Stephen Osborn" wrote:

Also it is rather daft that an Oyster can only have auto top-up
enabled when it used for a journey and not at a Tube ticket office.

Auto means auto. I don't see the problem.

The key word is 'enabled'. I have an Oyster that used to have a
Travelcard on it but now has PAYG. I would like to have auto top-up
but to *enable* auto top-up I have to use it for a journey at a Tube
station, indeed at a specified Tube station.

But to get to a Tube station, as I live in SE London, I would have to
take an Overground train and so I would normally buy a one day
Travelcard at the train station. To use my Oyster at the Tube station
I would either need to buy a train return ticket instead or use my
Oyster PAYG when I had a valid Travelcard. Either of those would mean
I was paying extra for the privilege of switching on auto top-up.

Yes. Paying one pound extra. Once.

If that's too much, let me know - i would be quite happy to pay it for
you.

Not a problem for me but it would be for some people. However the key
point is that it is a totally unnecessary obstacle.

An unnecessary but incredibly minor obstacle.

Essentially there are no Tube stations in SE London. So I don't think an
unnecessary obstacle that applies to c. ¼ of London's population is
incredibly minor.

It does not seem unreasonable to want to go up to a Tube ticket office
and ask for auto top-up to be switched on. In a well designed system
that would be possible at *any* Tube ticket office - so I would be able
to just pick one that does not have a queue when I am passing through.

Agreed. But that doesn't stop the complaint you're making being a
complete
non-issue.

So you agree that the system should be different to what it is now and
then say that wanting the system to be different to what it is now is a
non-issue. Those seem to be contradictory thoughts.

No, not at all. It would be an improvement if you could activate auto
top-up at a ticket machine or ticket office, but such a minor one that its
value is negligible, ie a non-issue.

You seem to be missing the meaning of the words you are using.

I think it's you who's doing the missing.

You say that the system would be better if auto top-up could be activated at
a ticket office. Therefore it is an issue, for potentially several million
people.

Then you say that it is so small that it is not an issue.

Therein lies the contradiction.

I've already explained this. I think the 'issue' is so minor as to be a
non-issue.

These several million people, who apparently never travel to parts of
London where there are tube stations: they all want to activate auto
top-up, do they? Nobody's already done it, does without it, or uses a
period travelcard?

tom

--
Brace yourself for an engulfing, cowardly autotroph! I want your
photosynthetic apparatii!

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, David Cantrell wrote:

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 08:08:28PM +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

But to get to a Tube station, as I live in SE London, I would have
to take an Overground train and so I would normally buy a one day
Travelcard at the train station. To use my Oyster at the Tube
station I would either need to buy a train return ticket instead or
use my Oyster PAYG when I had a valid Travelcard. Either of those
would mean I was paying extra for the privilege of switching on auto
top-up.
Yes. Paying one pound extra. Once.

Two pounds and ninety pence actually.

No, one pound.

You set up auto top-up, and nominate the most convenient station outside
Z1 for pickup.

And if one needs to get a train to get to a Tube station then nearest Tube
station will be inside Z1. So to get the lower excess price involves more
travel

Not necessarily. Lewisham (did we establish that you can pick up an
activation at a DLR station?), Greenwich (ditto), Elephant, Balham,
Brixton, Clapham High Street - all in south or southeast London, equipped
with railway stations, and all outside Z1. In fact, thinking about it,
there is *nowhere* in southeast London from where you can't get a direct
train to a tube station outside Z1.

You go to your local railway station or ticket seller and buy a paper
one-day travelcard. You travel to the nominated station using it. You
enter the system using your oyster card, activating auto top-up, and
travel to another station outside Z1. You leave the system, with your auto
top-up activated, and having paid a pound for the journey. You then
continue your day's travelling on the paper travelcard.

From the next day on, you use the oyster card.

The only extra cost over having auto top-up activated at a tube station is
the one pound cost of the tube trip.

There is the cost of my time in travelling to & from two Tube stations
outside Z1.

Because of course there's no reason ever to go outside Z1, is there?

How about a trip to the cinema or the Museum in Docklands (which is very
good!) at Canary Wharf? A curry, or bagel if you prefer, down Brick Lane
way? A visit to the big Decathlon store - and one of a handful of
surviving Spud-U-Likes - at Canada Water? Kew Gardens? Richmond park?
Epping Forest? The Cutty Sark? The National Maritime Museum? The fine
restaurants of Clapham? A spot of herb shopping in Brixton? An afternoon
at Camden market? A million other things to do in London? All of which
make picking up an activation on the way a trivial matter.

tom

--
Brace yourself for an engulfing, cowardly autotroph! I want your
photosynthetic apparatii!

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
12:17:16 on Wed, 26 Nov 2008, David Cantrell
remarked:

The only slight wrinkle might be being asked whether you want to use
the Express or a normal train.

It's more complex than that as there are other ticketing options
than "Gatex only" and "any Permitted". And is the "Any permitted"
even allowed on Gatex - and why should a tourist be expected to
understand?

Don't forget the FCC options.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 26 Nov, 17:09, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, David Cantrell wrote:

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 08:08:28PM +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

But to get to a Tube station, as I live in SE London, I would have
to take an Overground train and so I would normally buy a one day
Travelcard at the train station. *To use my Oyster at the Tube
station I would either need to buy a train return ticket instead or
use my Oyster PAYG when I had a valid Travelcard. *Either of those
would mean I was paying extra for the privilege of switching on auto
top-up.
Yes. Paying one pound extra. Once.

Two pounds and ninety pence actually.

No, one pound.

You set up auto top-up, and nominate the most convenient station outside
Z1 for pickup.

And if one needs to get a train to get to a Tube station then nearest Tube
station will be inside Z1. *So to get the lower excess price involves more
travel

Not necessarily. Lewisham (did we establish that you can pick up an
activation at a DLR station?), Greenwich (ditto), Elephant, Balham,
Brixton, Clapham High Street - all in south or southeast London, equipped
with railway stations, and all outside Z1. In fact, thinking about it,
there is *nowhere* in southeast London from where you can't get a direct
train to a tube station outside Z1.

Not likely at the DLR stations, because there are no gates.

But it may still be possible at New Cross as a legacy of the ELL.

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
09:08:35 on Wed, 26 Nov 2008, remarked:
As the visits are for academic purposes does it not occur to you that
the hosts might provide accommodation?

At the airport?

No, such that only travel and not accommodation is an expense that needs
to be reclaimed. You're being very dense today, Roland.

(If not at the airport, then there's some fares to pay[1] - or do
they have a free shuttle bus).

[1] The earlier proposition you suggested was that stopovers didn't
involve employers paying any fares.

They pay the air fares but the stopover rather than transit option isn't
on their account. At least AIUI.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:17:16 +0000, David Cantrell
wrote:

The only slight wrinkle might be being asked whether you want to use the
Express or a normal train.

Airwick Gatport still has the unusual and stupid situation of there
not being an Any Permitted ticket, though. That said, people won't
necessarily expect there to be one - UK railway ticketing is
beautifully integrated compared with many countries.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:

No, not at all. It would be an improvement if you could activate auto
top-up at a ticket machine or ticket office, but such a minor one that
its
value is negligible, ie a non-issue.

You seem to be missing the meaning of the words you are using.

I think it's you who's doing the missing.

You say that the system would be better if auto top-up could be activated
at
a ticket office. Therefore it is an issue, for potentially several
million
people.

Then you say that it is so small that it is not an issue.

Therein lies the contradiction.

I've already explained this. I think the 'issue' is so minor as to be a
non-issue.

As far as I can see you seem to be saying it is an issue and is not an issue
in the same sentence. That to me seems to be a contradiction but does not
to you.

I think we have to agree to disagree.

These several million people, who apparently never travel to parts of
London where there are tube stations:

No, not never travel to but never *start* their journey at a Tube station,
because they can't.

they all want to activate auto
top-up, do they?

I have no idea and nor do you but for all of them it is an unnecessary
problem if and when any of them do want to.

Nobody's already done it,

I am sure some have, but by working round the system.

does without it,

Isn't that what I am saying, I do without auto top-up as it is harder to
switch on than necessary.

or uses a
period travelcard?

The relevence of that to PAYG is what?

--
regards

Stephen

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:23:44 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

It's more complex than that as there are other ticketing options than
"Gatex only" and "any Permitted". And is the "Any permitted" even
allowed on Gatex - and why should a tourist be expected to understand?

There is no Any Permitted. There is only (!) Gatwick Express Only,
Thameslink Only and Southern Only.

Bloody stupid it is too.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 26 Nov, 12:21, "Stephen Osborn"
wrote:

4. I read in another thread that if you start your journey, using Oyster
PAYG, in the peak period and make further journeys in the off-peak period
then those later journeys count towards the peak cap and not the off-peak
cap. Hence it can be cheaper to buy a single ticket [1] for the peak
journey and use Oyster PAYG for the off-peak journeys

[1] In the case quotes the person actually uses two Oyster PAYG cards.


You have misintepreted this bit actually. It will ignore your peak
journey if all your off-peak journeys hit the off-peak cap, but it
won't count your peak journey towards the off-peak cap, so you'd pay
one single journey plus the off-peak cap.

Okay, I must have misunderstood that thread.

The two cards thread was about the different fares charged at
different times of day, which aren't the same periods that apply to
peak and off-peak capping, and, I think, whether it made sense to
restart a single journey after 0930 rather than have it all charged at
the before 0930 rate, or something like that.

--
regards

Stephen