On 20 Nov, 14:34, MIG wrote:
Strange that there is generally better provision for people changing
trains than for people staying on the same train.

In the hypothetical world of the Oyster designers no one ever needs to
do this (and everyone lives near an Oyster retailer, and everyone is
always able to touch in and out, and journeys never exceed two hours,
and no one ever makes a journey outside the system, and so on). Oyster
is a great example of a system that works perfectly on paper but has
no real failure modes.

It's poor design choices caused by poor absolute requirements (eg it
would work a whole lot better if journeys in London were flat rate).

U

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:34:05 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:

Most of LU doesn't have platform validators, unfortunately, and if it
became normal, there would probably be safety implications to everyone
jumping off. Is the Gunnersbury one a legacy from before LO where one
might have changed trains from non-Oyster to Oyster?

Strange that there is generally better provision for people changing
trains than for people staying on the same train.

There's better provision for people changing oyster cards than people
using the same card, not just changing trains!

Example Waford Junction - Z1 via Euston at 11am

Using a single card:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -3.00
Exit Z1 0.00

total 6.00

Using two cards:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -1.50
Exit Z1 0.00

Total 4.50

It gets even worse if you do enough Z1 travel to reach your cap.

WJ-Z1 return plus 10xZ1 journeys

Use one card for WJ-Euston return and another for the 12 Z1 journeys
= 6.00 + 6.30(Z1 peak cap) = 12.30

Use one card for the whole thing:
= 12.00 + 15.00 capped at 17.10.

If you just use buses in Z1 then IIUC it goes from 9.00 max to 17.10
max.

Of course, it's not always cheaper to use two cards - WJ-Z1 return off
peak is cheaper with one card (7.00 than two 9.00). But WJ-Z1 plus some
Z1 offpeak travel is cheaper with two cards (10.80 rather than 12.60)

If I travelled WJ-Euston and then gave my prepay oyster card to someone
else to use during the day and they gave it back to me at the end of the
day for me to return to WJ (I rarely use the tube in Z1, I'm either
cycling or walking) then I suspect TfL wouldn't have a leg to stand on
if you demanded the difference as a refund. ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, David of Broadway wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:

On 19 Nov, 21:47, David of Broadway
wrote:
But capping is valid everywhere that PAYG is accepted, which includes
both TfL and non-TfL services - including a portion of the OP's route.

But you are perfectly entitled to use the cap to get to TTK. What you
can't do is use it to get a discount on the long distance fare, which
is what not getting off the train amounts to.

I was merely replying to Mr. Anderson's suggestion that capping is a
special offer for TfL services. In fact, capping is available
everywhere that PAYG is offered, TfL and non-TfL alike, as long as the
entire trip is available on PAYG.

It is. But i don't see how that's incompatible with it being a special
offer!

tom

--
skin thinking

"Tim Woodall" wrote in message
e.uk...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:34:05 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:.

There's better provision for people changing oyster cards than people
using the same card, not just changing trains!

Example Waford Junction - Z1 via Euston at 11am

Using a single card:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -3.00
Exit Z1 0.00

total 6.00

Using two cards:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -1.50
Exit Z1 0.00

Total 4.50

Tim,

I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3 Travelcard on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. Can you please
explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

regards

Stephen



It gets even worse if you do enough Z1 travel to reach your cap.

WJ-Z1 return plus 10xZ1 journeys

Use one card for WJ-Euston return and another for the 12 Z1 journeys
= 6.00 + 6.30(Z1 peak cap) = 12.30

Use one card for the whole thing:
= 12.00 + 15.00 capped at 17.10.

If you just use buses in Z1 then IIUC it goes from 9.00 max to 17.10
max.

Of course, it's not always cheaper to use two cards - WJ-Z1 return off
peak is cheaper with one card (7.00 than two 9.00). But WJ-Z1 plus some
Z1 offpeak travel is cheaper with two cards (10.80 rather than 12.60)

If I travelled WJ-Euston and then gave my prepay oyster card to someone
else to use during the day and they gave it back to me at the end of the
day for me to return to WJ (I rarely use the tube in Z1, I'm either
cycling or walking) then I suspect TfL wouldn't have a leg to stand on
if you demanded the difference as a refund. ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

In message
, Mr
Thant writes

It's poor design choices caused by poor absolute requirements (eg it
would work a whole lot better if journeys in London were flat rate).

Given the size of London, though, a flat rate would be grossly unfair.

And I'm not too clear about the dearth of Oyster retailers. I live in a
part of London that's not served by the tube, but there are 9 Oyster
ticket shops within a few minutes' walk, including one adjacent or very
close to almost every bus stop in the local vicinity. But bus usage in
inner SW London is heavy, so I can imagine that some areas are less well
served.

--
Paul Terry

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:52:12 -0000,
Stephen Osborn stephen.osborn wrote:

"Tim Woodall" wrote in message
e.uk...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:34:05 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:.

There's better provision for people changing oyster cards than people
using the same card, not just changing trains!

Example Waford Junction - Z1 via Euston at 11am

Using a single card:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -3.00
Exit Z1 0.00

total 6.00

Using two cards:
Entry Watford Junction -5.50
Exit Euston +2.50
Entry Euston Underground -1.50
Exit Z1 0.00

Total 4.50

Tim,

I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3 Travelcard on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. Can you please
explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

Peak OffPeak PeakCap OffpeakCap
WJ-Euston 5.50 3.00
WJ-Zone 1 6.00 3.50 17.10 12.60
Z1-Z1 1.50 1.50 6.30 4.80

The problem is that the peak time for WJ-Euston is only 7:00-9:30 (I
think, check that end time before relying on it) but the peak time for
WJ-Z1 and Z1-Z1 is 07:00-19:00

That means doing WJ-Euston plus Euston-Z1 as two separate journeys
after 9:30 is an offpeak 3.00 plus peak 1.50. But if you do it on the
same card, despite touching all the same readers it will be charged as a
single WJ-Z1 journey at peak time.

Here's when it actually happened to me:

12:16 Charing Cross Exit - £2.00 £30.90
12:05 Euston LUL Entry - £1.00 £32.90
12:03 Euston NR Exit £2.50 £33.90
11:36 Watford Junction Entry - £5.50 £31.40

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

"Tim Woodall" wrote in message
e.uk...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:52:12 -0000,
Stephen Osborn stephen.osborn wrote:

I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3 Travelcard
on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. Can you please
explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

Peak OffPeak PeakCap OffpeakCap
WJ-Euston 5.50 3.00
WJ-Zone 1 6.00 3.50 17.10 12.60
Z1-Z1 1.50 1.50 6.30 4.80

The problem is that the peak time for WJ-Euston is only 7:00-9:30 (I
think, check that end time before relying on it) but the peak time for
WJ-Z1 and Z1-Z1 is 07:00-19:00

That means doing WJ-Euston plus Euston-Z1 as two separate journeys
after 9:30 is an offpeak 3.00 plus peak 1.50. But if you do it on the
same card, despite touching all the same readers it will be charged as a
single WJ-Z1 journey at peak time.

Of course the LU peak charging times change in January IIRC, making this
less of an issue, with an additional off peak period from 0930 - 1600, but I
suspect this was lost in the noise when all the 'massive fare hike shock -
blame Boris' stories appeared...

Paul S

On Nov 20, 10:35*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Tim Woodall" wrote in message

e.uk...





On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:52:12 -0000,
* *Stephen Osborn stephen.osborn wrote:
I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3 Travelcard
on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. *Can you please
explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

* * * * * * * Peak *OffPeak PeakCap OffpeakCap
WJ-Euston * * 5.50 *3.00
WJ-Zone 1 * * 6.00 *3.50 * *17.10 * 12.60
Z1-Z1 * * * * 1.50 *1.50 * * 6.30 * *4.80

The problem is that the peak time for WJ-Euston is only 7:00-9:30 (I
think, check that end time before relying on it) but the peak time for
WJ-Z1 and Z1-Z1 is 07:00-19:00

That means doing WJ-Euston plus Euston-Z1 as two separate journeys
after 9:30 is an offpeak 3.00 plus peak 1.50. But if you do it on the
same card, despite touching all the same readers it will be charged as a
single WJ-Z1 journey at peak time.

Of course the LU peak charging times change in January IIRC, making this
less of an issue, with an additional off peak period from 0930 - 1600, but I
suspect this was lost in the noise when all the 'massive fare hike shock -
blame Boris' stories appeared...

Paul S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm confused now. Are we talking the period when single fares are at
a higher rate, or are we talking about the period during which the
start of a journey contributes to a peak cap rather than an off-peak
cap?

I think only the former could advantage someone using two cards, if
the second journey starts after 0930, assuming no caps are reached.
If the off-peak cap is reached on a single card, one peak journey
won't affect it.

Then there's the issue of different caps for different zones. I am
confused by the terminology as to what is actually the issue here.

MIG wrote:
On Nov 20, 10:35 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Tim Woodall" wrote in message

e.uk...





On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:52:12 -0000,
Stephen Osborn stephen.osborn wrote:
I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3
Travelcard on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. Can you
please explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

Peak OffPeak PeakCap OffpeakCap
WJ-Euston 5.50 3.00
WJ-Zone 1 6.00 3.50 17.10 12.60
Z1-Z1 1.50 1.50 6.30 4.80

The problem is that the peak time for WJ-Euston is only 7:00-9:30
(I think, check that end time before relying on it) but the peak
time for WJ-Z1 and Z1-Z1 is 07:00-19:00

That means doing WJ-Euston plus Euston-Z1 as two separate journeys
after 9:30 is an offpeak 3.00 plus peak 1.50. But if you do it on
the same card, despite touching all the same readers it will be
charged as a single WJ-Z1 journey at peak time.

Of course the LU peak charging times change in January IIRC, making
this less of an issue, with an additional off peak period from 0930
- 1600, but I suspect this was lost in the noise when all the
'massive fare hike shock - blame Boris' stories appeared...

Paul S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm confused now. Are we talking the period when single fares are at
a higher rate, or are we talking about the period during which the
start of a journey contributes to a peak cap rather than an off-peak
cap?

The former I believe - because there is a special regime for part of the LO
route into Euston, where the 'individual fares' drop back to 'lower rate' at
0930; but carrying on into zone 1 by 'tube' appears to overide this. Both
Tim's journeys are after 0930, so 'off peak' for capping purposes.

I think only the former could advantage someone using two cards, if
the second journey starts after 0930, assuming no caps are reached.
If the off-peak cap is reached on a single card, one peak journey
won't affect it.

See above

Then there's the issue of different caps for different zones. I am
confused by the terminology as to what is actually the issue here.

You're right, I think we came to the conclusion a while back that it is
better to talk about '0700-1900 Mon-Fri' and 'all other times' for
individual fares, and peak (before 0930) and off peak (after 0930) for
capping purposes. The fares booklet generally sticks to this style, [except
when it's referring to the special fares for the LO route into Euston].

Unfortunately, I just repeated the TfL press release's description of a new
'off peak period'...

Paul S.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:57:26 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:
On Nov 20, 10:35*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Tim Woodall" wrote in message

e.uk...





On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:52:12 -0000,
* *Stephen Osborn stephen.osborn wrote:
I've only recently started using PAYG (I used to have a Z1-3 Travelcard
on
my Oyster) so I am not familiar with all the intricacies. *Can you please
explain why using two Oyster cards is cheaper in this case.

* * * * * * * Peak *OffPeak PeakCap OffpeakCap
WJ-Euston * * 5.50 *3.00
WJ-Zone 1 * * 6.00 *3.50 * *17.10 * 12.60
Z1-Z1 * * * * 1.50 *1.50 * * 6.30 * *4.80

The problem is that the peak time for WJ-Euston is only 7:00-9:30 (I
think, check that end time before relying on it) but the peak time for
WJ-Z1 and Z1-Z1 is 07:00-19:00

That means doing WJ-Euston plus Euston-Z1 as two separate journeys
after 9:30 is an offpeak 3.00 plus peak 1.50. But if you do it on the
same card, despite touching all the same readers it will be charged as a
single WJ-Z1 journey at peak time.

Of course the LU peak charging times change in January IIRC, making this
less of an issue, with an additional off peak period from 0930 - 1600, but I
suspect this was lost in the noise when all the 'massive fare hike shock -
blame Boris' stories appeared...

Paul S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm confused now. Are we talking the period when single fares are at
a higher rate, or are we talking about the period during which the
start of a journey contributes to a peak cap rather than an off-peak
cap?

I think only the former could advantage someone using two cards, if
the second journey starts after 0930, assuming no caps are reached.
If the off-peak cap is reached on a single card, one peak journey
won't affect it.

The current problem is that WJ-Euston can be offpeak but WJ-Z1 can be
peak for the same starting time. And the fare difference for those two
journeys is more than the Euston-Z1 fare

Even worse, the WJ-Zone1 being peak means that your cap will be the WJ
peak cap even though the WJ-Euston bit will have been offpeak. If you
did WJ-Euston, walked to KX and then lots of Z1 journeys will be less
than doing WJ-Euston and then walking to Euston LUL (and the same on
the return).

WJ 11am - Euston 3.00
KX +Z1 +KX 6.30 (Z1 cap)
Euston 3pm - WJ 3.00
12.30

WJ 11am - Z1 6.00
Z1 journeys 6.30 (Z1 cap)
Z1 3pm - WJ 6.00
18:30 (capped at 17:10)


Then there's the issue of different caps for different zones. I am
confused by the terminology as to what is actually the issue here.

This started from someone pointing out that they could get a cheaper
journey by jumping out of a train, touching the validator and jumping
back on the same train. There are a number of possible journeys where
things like this are possible. But the WJ-Zone1 journey is peculiar in
that you MUST[1] touch the validators when you change from Euston NR to
Euston LUL.

[1] Very occasionally, a Watford Junction train will come in on platform
12 where there are no validators. I suspect (but have never tried) that
if you were to go straight down onto the underground you would get an
unresolved WJ-Euston journey charged at 5.50 plus a 1.50 Z1 single.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/