On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, wrote:

In article , (Andrew
Heenan) wrote:

And how you think an 'auto' system could conceivably function
*without* registration beats me!

Why does the system need to know more than which /card/ is being
topped up?

Because you have to give them your credit/debit card details, so
they can charge you money for the credit which is being topped up.
If they took paypal or something, then maybe they wouldn't have to
take your details, but they don't, so they do.

I can top up a mobile phone at a cash machine. They need to know who I
am to charge me but the phone I'm topping up may not be registered at
all and has no problem being topped up. Same with Oyster cards, surely?

You could do that. But since you have to enter your details to authorise
the card purchase, what's the point? If the secret police are out to get,
you, that's enough.

tom

--
The literature is filled with bizarre occurrances for which we have
no explanation

On Nov 25, 5:18*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, MIG wrote:
On Nov 24, 8:06*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, wrote:
In article , (Andrew
Heenan) wrote:

wrote:
None of this helps us provincials who use perhaps a tenner a year
on PAYG.
That being the case, what on Earth are you doing even considering
auto top-up. That's insane.
I think I was slightly confusing auto with online top-up which has
similar issues.

Fair 'nuff.

Online top up really is a pain, especially for small amounts.

But it's pretty well the only option if you live in the USA.

People who live in the USA aren't really part of the target demographic
for Oyster. Unless the Crossrail plans have changed radically since i last
looked.

Why would that be?

Because most people who live in the USA don't use Transport for London
routes. What with them being in London, which is in Britain, which is not
in America.

Some people who live in the USA do come to London, it's true - and when
they're here, they have access to the same ticket machines we do. They may
not be able to use online or auto top-up, but then plenty of Londoners
don't (including me), and don't have any particular problems getting
around. I just don't see that the inability of non-residents to do online
top-up is a big deal.

Is it because TfL doesn't do business with tourists, or is it because
TfL wants to discourage tourists from using Oyster so that it can fleece
them?

Yes, something like that, i'm sure. It's all a plot.

Except that I was only pointing out the implications of your
suggestion about the "target demographic".

It seems to me that the target demographic is anyone who uses public
transport in London, wherever in the world they come from, and also
that being a major tourist attraction, that includes a lot of people
from overseas, eg USA.

In message , at 11:29:10
on Tue, 25 Nov 2008, remarked:
Depends what you call a "problem". The railway ticket machines
haven't taken plastic until the last year (approx), and even now
it's only a few.

and that was perhaps 20 years ago. Switzerland has been fine
every time I've been there.

Whether Switzerland is fine or not, the ticket machines are not
plastic-friendly.

In both cases, I expect, I've had no problems using plastic at a ticket
office.

I think they charge you extra for buying a ticket at a manned office
(assuming there's one open).

And I don't speak a word of Dutch.

You do, but don't realise it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...f_Dutch_origin
--
Roland Perry

"Tom Anderson" wrote ...
We should have another utl meet, this time with a tinfoil hat making
workshop.

Does that entail having the same conversation umpteen times, with certain
*unnamed* members holding their fingers in their ears the whole time going
"I'm not listening, I'm not listening".

Mind you, the worst offenders wouldn't be able to travel to the venue, let
alone find it, as they'd be frightened of Big Brother catching them crossing
the borough line. And other members taking their photo if they arrived.

Sounds like a bundle of fun !!
--
Andrew
seo2seo.com
sick-site-syndrome.com

"When 'Do no Evil' has been understood, then learn the harder, braver rule,
Do Good." ~ Arthur Guiterman

On Nov 25, 5:05*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, solar penguin wrote:
Andrew Heenan wrote:

You are still wrong (and an idiot) and will likely stay that way.

Ah. *Your pro-Oyster argument descends to abuse. That usually means you
know you can't win the argument with facts.

In this case, i think it means he's tried facts, and found them completely
ineffective.

Actually, he hasn't. He is a wind-up artist who solar penguin would
do best to ignore. I am sure that he is the same person as "Adrian"
from the way that he initially appears to contribute to the
discussion, then gradually slips in some deliberate misrepresentations
of what people have said before descending into a stream of abusive
non-sequiturs.

It's a very skilful kind of trolling. I understand solar penguin's
frustrations, but he shouldn't get hooked into this kind of flame war.

On Nov 25, 5:31*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 08:08:28PM +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Stephen Osborn wrote:
But to get to a Tube station, as I live in SE London, I would have to
take an Overground train and so I would normally buy a one day
Travelcard at the train station. *To use my Oyster at the Tube station I
would either need to buy a train return ticket instead or use my Oyster
PAYG when I had a valid Travelcard. *Either of those would mean I was
paying extra for the privilege of switching on auto top-up.
Yes. Paying one pound extra. Once.

Two pounds and ninety pence actually.

No, one pound.

You set up auto top-up, and nominate the most convenient station outside
Z1 for pickup. You go to your local railway station or ticket seller and
buy a paper one-day travelcard. You travel to the nominated station using
it. You enter the system using your oyster card, activating auto top-up,
and travel to another station outside Z1. You leave the system, with your
auto top-up activated, and having paid a pound for the journey. You then
continue your day's travelling on the paper travelcard.

From the next day on, you use the oyster card.

The only extra cost over having auto top-up activated at a tube station is
the one pound cost of the tube trip.

That's the only explanation I can think of for how they could have
deployed a system with so many obvious design flaws.

Because *obviously* it wouldn't have been pushed through far too quickly
for mere political expediency!

We should have another utl meet, this time with a tinfoil hat making
workshop.

Can someone please just explain the logic of making a million people
solve a million individual problems, costing them a pound or whatever,
instead of TfL just solving one problem, by allowing top-up to be
activated at the ticket office?

wrote:
In article ,
(David of Broadway) wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:06:10 -0600,
wrote:

Online top up really is a pain, especially for small amounts.
But it's pretty well the only option if you live in the USA.
Can't you just obtain a card and top it up at Heathrow station?
Once you've got the hang of Oyster, probably. But explaining it
to my brother wasn't trivial and I've not started on my
sister-in-law. They don't really do public transport in Columbus.
Then the whole system is likely confusing. But for those who do do
public transport, manually adding value to a card is found in many
more cities than automatic top-up.

Then there are the (rare) trips not entering the UK through
Heathrow.
For which Oyster is useless until arrival in London proper. Except
for arrivals (not direct from the US) into St. Pancras and London
City, where I believe Oyster cards are readily available. (Or are
Oysters not available at DLR stations?)

I was thinking of someone with an existing Oyster who needs to top up
online and collect on arrival. They have to know the point of arrival at
the time of the online top up.

Why does the aforementioned someone need to top up online? Every entry
point to the UK where Oyster is accepted (Heathrow, London City, and St.
Pancras are all that come to mind) have Oyster top-up facilities.
--
David of Broadway

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, David of Broadway wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

People who live in the USA aren't really part of the target
demographic for Oyster.

So how are people who live in the USA expected to pay for their
Underground/bus/etc. rides when they visit London?

With an Oyster card which they top up at ticket machines.

(scratches head) Of course. (Or at ticket windows, since USA-based
credit cards don't work at most UK vending machines.)

So how, again, are we Americans not part of the target demographic for
Oyster?

Incidentally, I give TfL credit for offering the full array of ticketing
options to locals and visitors alike. Here in Paris, the Carte Orange
option magically disappears from the RATP website as soon as a language
other than French is selected (in its place, Paris-Visite is heavily
promoted), and nonresidents who do opt for the Carte Orange must first
pay €5 for the Navigo Découverte (while residents are eligible to obtain
the regular Passe Navigo at no charge). Various websites claim that
RATP ticket agents often refuse to sell Cartes Orange to tourists,
although I had no trouble last week at Gare du Nord, and I didn't even
bother trying to speak French to the agent (her English was a lot better
than my French).
--
David of Broadway

On 25 Nov, 18:13, David of Broadway
wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, David of Broadway wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

People who live in the USA aren't really part of the target
demographic for Oyster.

So how are people who live in the USA expected to pay for their
Underground/bus/etc. rides when they visit London?

With an Oyster card which they top up at ticket machines.

(scratches head) Of course. *(Or at ticket windows, since USA-based
credit cards don't work at most UK vending machines.)

So how, again, are we Americans not part of the target demographic for
Oyster?

David of Broadway

Mastercard Paypass & Visa Wave cards seem to be TfL's eventual
solution for overseas tourists.
Fare calculation, capping and billing would be processed overnight,
rather than at the gatelines as happens with Oyster.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, David of Broadway wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, David of Broadway wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

People who live in the USA aren't really part of the target demographic
for Oyster.

So how are people who live in the USA expected to pay for their
Underground/bus/etc. rides when they visit London?

With an Oyster card which they top up at ticket machines.

(scratches head) Of course. (Or at ticket windows, since USA-based credit
cards don't work at most UK vending machines.)

So how, again, are we Americans not part of the target demographic for
Oyster?

Because the vast majority of you don't come to London. Not being part of
the target demographic doesn't mean that you're not allowed to use oyster
- indeed, it's highly encouraged - just that your needs are not uppermost
in designing or running it.

tom

--
The literature is filled with bizarre occurrances for which we have
no explanation