On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!


I don't now see Oyster PAYG as a charging scheme extending at all
outside Greater London, apart from it being extended to Maidenhead &
Shenfield in due course.

The Trainline did propose at one point to issue tickets on Oyster
plastic, but with the removal of Mifare Classic as a option for
National Rail ticketing, I don't think there will be any future moves
in this direction.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:59:33 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.
--
Paul C

On 23 Dec, 18:11, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:59:33 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant

wrote:
On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.

Thanks for the info. Somewhat esoteric questions comments follow...

So the arrangement at Heathrow mainline stations (for Heathrow Connect
services) will be a bit like the "zone W" arrangement at Watford
Junction (though this "zone W" concept is only used in internal
communications, not passenger facing ones) - i.e. a station outside
the normal zones that accepts Oyster PAYG.

Presumably, so as to cover every eventuality, there will have to be
"zone H" + "zone W" daily price caps (in both peak and off-peak
flavours).

On 23 Dec, 18:04, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:



On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number
to get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the
way to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

I don't now see Oyster PAYG as a charging scheme extending at all
outside Greater London, apart from it being extended to Maidenhead &
Shenfield in due course.

Sorry, I was unclear - I didn't mean Oyster PAYG, instead I was
referring to a future smartcard system for the new Southern franchise
- which I presume is a requirement of the new franchise agreement, or
is it not?

My scepticism about the timescale for any Southern smartcard system is
based on the muddled rollout of the SWT system, which sounds as though
it is some considerable time away from being made universally
available across their routes.

Anyway the notion of a smartcard system offering a pay-as-you-go
facility over a widespread area seems somewhat unlikely, as there is
are some almost insurmountable issues with any such implementation -
anyway I understand that the TOCs plans for ITSO smartcards don't
really feature pay-as-you-go as a possible application either.
Individual pay-as-you-go system remains a possibility in specific
'metro areas', with acceptance on buses (and trams) as well.

We discussed many of these issues in a recent uk.r thread, "Smartcard
readers at stations in Hampshire/Dorset?":
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....08f185d6b9c1f/


Note that David Stocks actually said "[i]f Southern can offer Oyster
compatible tickets all the way to the coast [...]" - such a thing is
certainly possible, but it would just be a combined smartcard
fulfilling two separate functions, that of...
(1) a Southern ITSO smartcard, perhaps holding a virtual carnet of
Brighton to London tickets, and
(2) an Oyster card, offering Oyster PAYG capability for journeys
within London.

In other words the card would simply offer the benefits of two
separate cards, combined into one card - it would just be handy,
that's all! (The existing Barclaycard OnePulse card is basically
this.)


The Trainline did propose at one point to issue tickets on Oyster
plastic, but with the removal of Mifare Classic as a option for
National Rail ticketing, I don't think there will be any future moves
in this direction.


I vaguely remember something about that - was it ever anything other
than them thinking allowed?

On 23 Dec, 18:26, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 18:11, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:59:33 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant

wrote:
On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.

Thanks for the info. Somewhat esoteric questions comments follow...

So the arrangement at Heathrow mainline stations (for Heathrow Connect
services) will be a bit like the "zone W" arrangement at Watford
Junction (though this "zone W" concept is only used in internal
communications, not passenger facing ones) - i.e. a station outside
the normal zones that accepts Oyster PAYG.

Presumably, so as to cover every eventuality, there will have to be
"zone H" + "zone W" daily price caps (in both peak and off-peak
flavours).-

These will be the first caps without a related Travelcard, as
Travelcards from Watford Junction are available.

I wonder if PAYG will extend to Heathrow Express at any point. The
only way I could see to implement that without revenue risks is to
install on-train validators.

On 23 Dec, 18:47, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 18:26, Mizter T wrote:

On 23 Dec, 18:11, Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.

Thanks for the info. Somewhat esoteric questions comments follow...

So the arrangement at Heathrow mainline stations (for Heathrow Connect
services) will be a bit like the "zone W" arrangement at Watford
Junction (though this "zone W" concept is only used in internal
communications, not passenger facing ones) - i.e. a station outside
the normal zones that accepts Oyster PAYG.

Presumably, so as to cover every eventuality, there will have to be
"zone H" + "zone W" daily price caps (in both peak and off-peak
flavours).-

These will be the first caps without a related Travelcard, as
Travelcards from Watford Junction are available.


It took a moment for me to figure out what you meant - but yes I see,
there isn't an 'out-boundary' Travelcard from Heathrow for use on
Heathrow Connect.


I wonder if PAYG will extend to Heathrow Express at any point. The
only way I could see to implement that without revenue risks is to
install on-train validators.


Hmm, not sure about that, what with HEx charging a premium over HC. As
you suggest, validators on board would be one solution - I suppose
another would be for the extra premium fare to be deducted by the
handheld reader used by the HEx conductors - not without precedent, as
this is how conductors on Routemaster buses deal collect the fares of
Oyster PAYG users.

The extension of Oyster PAYG to Heathrow Connect does at least put one
little query about Crossrail to bed - the question of whether or not
Oyster could be used to Heathrow on Crossrail. The follow-on question
of whether using Crossrail to Heathrow would attract a surcharge above
and beyond a normal London zonal fare, as will be the case with
Heathrow Connect, remains open.

Of course little questions about Oyster acceptance at Heathrow are
somewhat overshadowed by some other questions about Crossrail - a 16
billion pound question stands out in particular.

On 23 Dec, 19:03, Mizter T wrote:
The extension of Oyster PAYG to Heathrow Connect does at least put one
little query about Crossrail to bed - the question of whether or not
Oyster could be used to Heathrow on Crossrail. The follow-on question
of whether using Crossrail to Heathrow would attract a surcharge above
and beyond a normal London zonal fare, as will be the case with
Heathrow Connect, remains open.

From conversations that I've had with Crossrail reps & BAA reps,
Crossrail is taking over the HC operation, and fares to Heathrow will
remain the same at changeover. This is because the Heathrow spur is
not part of the National Rail network, but privately owned by BAA. So
theanswer to the question above is 'yes' (as it does now)

Hex is another BAA service & will continue (still charging a higher
premium).

I understand that the link will open up at somestage to otheroperators
on an open-access agreement some time in the future. Also, the
proposed Airtrack to Terminal 5 will likewise be owned by BAA from
Staines to T5, andagain, attract a premium.

On Dec 23, 9:50*pm, Chris wrote:
From conversations that I've had with Crossrail reps & BAA reps,
Crossrail is taking over the HC operation, and fares to Heathrow will
remain the same at changeover. This is because the Heathrow spur is
not part of the National Rail network, but privately owned by BAA. So
theanswer to the question above is 'yes' (as it does now)

Hex is another BAA service & will continue (still charging a higher
premium).

....for a week, until it loses all its customers to Crossrail's
cheaper, direct service to the City and CW.

(seriously: if HEx is still running as a Heathrow-Paddington shuttle
when Crossrail opens, I'll eat an entire hat. Quite how they'll
arrange it to go through is another question...)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 23 Dec, 19:03, Mizter T wrote:
a 16 billion pound question stands out in particular.

What 16 billion pound question? CROSSRAIL HAS FUNDING! Earlier this
month TfL and the DfT signed the long-awaited contract that obliges
them to provide all of the £16bn funding apart from the ~£3bn covered
by Network Rail, BAA and the City, which I believe also now have
binding deals in place. For some reason the press releases chose to
emphasise the latter over the former, presumably thinking we'd been
hoodwinked by the non-deal funding deal announced a year ago. I even
specially reopened my supposed-to-be-dead blog to cover this event, as
it seems to have passed everyone by.

(Even the £3.5bn business rates question mark is covered by TfL/The
GLA, as they're underwriting that portion)

Crossrail has funding in as committed a form as there ever will be
until they actually start digging. There isn't another announcement to
come.

U