On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:44:49 -0800 (PST), Chris
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

What happens if the Oyster card is "touched out" near enough
immediately at the same station ?

"John B" wrote :
From conversations that I've had with Crossrail reps & BAA reps,
Crossrail is taking over the HC operation, and fares to Heathrow will
remain the same at changeover. This is because the Heathrow spur is
not part of the National Rail network, but privately owned by BAA. So
the answer to the question above is 'yes' (as it does now)
Hex is another BAA service & will continue (still charging a higher
premium).
...for a week, until it loses all its customers to Crossrail's
cheaper, direct service to the City and CW.
(seriously: if HEx is still running as a Heathrow-Paddington shuttle
when Crossrail opens, I'll eat an entire hat. Quite how they'll
arrange it to go through is another question...)

It may not be that quick (BAA are fairly stupid), but very few will change
from a crossrail heathrow stopper to catch a premium-priced 'express' for a
16 minute ride instead of a 22 minute one. It'll take longer for the folk
arriving at Heathrow to catch on that they are overpaying AND having to
change at Paddington.

The options are either a few crossrail trains going fast to Heathrow after
Paddington, or no HEx.

Off course, BAA will want to keep the Golden Goose going as long as
possible - but a half-empty peak hour HEx won't be very profitable, I
suspect.

If you look at total journey time, only someone living on Platform Five at
Paddington will gain much more than 5 minutes by HEx-ing; too few to
maintain a premium service, I suspect.

On 23 Dec, 23:30, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 19:03, Mizter T wrote:

a 16 billion pound question stands out in particular.

What 16 billion pound question? CROSSRAIL HAS FUNDING! Earlier this
month TfL and the DfT signed the long-awaited contract that obliges
them to provide all of the £16bn funding apart from the ~£3bn covered
by Network Rail, BAA and the City, which I believe also now have
binding deals in place. For some reason the press releases chose to
emphasise the latter over the former, presumably thinking we'd been
hoodwinked by the non-deal funding deal announced a year ago. I even
specially reopened my supposed-to-be-dead blog to cover this event, as
it seems to have passed everyone by.

(Even the £3.5bn business rates question mark is covered by TfL/The
GLA, as they're underwriting that portion)

Crossrail has funding in as committed a form as there ever will be
until they actually start digging. There isn't another announcement to
come.

U


That's great - and sh!t - yes, I had completely and totally missed
this absolutely critical bit of news - or at least what I had read and
heard at the beginning of December didn't remotely equate whatsoever
to what in my mind I had thought a firm commitment to a properly
funded go ahead would sound like. If the importance of this
announcement has already been made clear on utl or uk.r earlier this
month then I missed that too, as I wasn't really around here then. And
I don't have your late and distinctly lamented blog as an RSS feed or
anything fancy like that... but I have just read your sublime blog
entry on this topic - if I may I will put the link here and urge
readers to take a moment to read this little fable...

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...this-time.html


Whilst I had heard about the City of London Corporation's funding
contribution, I didn't put too much stock in that - it was after all
just a £350 million contribution - nothing to be sniffed at but rather
short of the £16bn needed. Back at the beginning of November BAA had
made a great song and dance of their contribution of £230 million, and
this had made headlines - so I though the latest announcement was more
of that, with a possible further hullabaloo to come when the Canary
Wharf Group handed over their cheque.

In addition this 9 December article that I'd read on the website of
Building magazine didn't exactly convince me of the project's futu
http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3129537

But of course, as you detected, hidden in the 4 December announcement
was confirmation that Crossrail was indeed go...
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fu...2&NewsAreaID=2


Dare I suggest two bits of reasoning for 'their' decision to do it
like this. The first is, according to the official narrative,
Crossrail has been green for go ever since the Prime Ministerial
announcement back in October 2007 - of course behind the scenes things
have been rather shakier, but whilst this uncertainty may have
dribbled out a bit (or indeed been intentionally leaked out by some
protagonists), the official story never changed.

The second is that getting money out of the City has been something of
an uphill struggle, and it is not quite over yet - the announcement
says...
"The City of London Corporation has agreed to make a direct
contribution of £200m to the Crossrail project. In addition, the City
Corporation will seek contributions from businesses of £150m, and has
guaranteed £50m of these contributions."

So, that's £200 million in the Crossrail piggy bank for certain.
However the remaining £150 million is somewhat more precarious, as the
Corporation still needs to try and squeeze £150 million out of City
firms. It's not entirely clear to me what is meant when the
announcement says that the Corporation has "guaranteed £50 million of
these contributions" - though I presume it means the Corporation is
confident enough that it will get at least £50 million in
contributions from City businesses, so essentially it is giving a gold-
plated guarantee that Crossrail will get at least £250 in total from
the City. (It could alternatively mean that if the Corporation fails
to reach the £150 million level of contributions from City firms, it
will pay in £50 million itself on top of say a £75 million business
contribution - but I don't think it does mean that.)


Seems to me that the £350 million contribution from the City could
fall to £250 million if City business don't open their chequebooks. I
therefore contend that the manner of this somewhat bizarre and
obscurantist Crossrail announcement of the go ahead serves two
purposes...

(a) It sets up the City of London Corporation to begin their
"Crossrail Funding Appeal" amongst City businesses, a sort of Square
Mile version of a 'Save the Church Steeple', 'Spitfire Fund' or 'Save
the Town Clock' type appeal - call it 'Crossrail in Need' if one
wishes to be flippant - where failure would be regarded by City big-
wigs as a humiliation to be avoided at all costs - well, at a cost of
£150 million actually. Whether this might result in a big totaliser
sign hanging over Guildhall, Mansion House or London Bridge is
unclear.

(b) It allows the government to use this announcement to confirm, in
cipher, that the project is actually, really, genuinely going ahead.
Only those who are attentive observers will actually spot this and be
able to decode what is really going on. Thankfully former UN Secretary
Generals, being used to this game, often fall into this bracket.

On 24 Dec, 01:06, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:44:49 -0800 (PST), Chris

(snip)

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

What happens if the Oyster card is "touched out" near enough
immediately at the same station ?


Eh? Do you mean what happens if the Oyster card is 'touched' a second
time shortly after the first 'touch'?
(This 'touching' terminology might be good for issuing basic usage
instructions, but it becomes ever more absurd when used in a more
advanced manner to describe various scenarios!)

In essence, if one is *leaving* via a ticket gate then the first touch
will be regarded by the system as 'touching out', and the system will
presume one did not touch-in as one should and will thus levy the
punitive charge (£4, apart from London termini stations where it is
£5, and Heathrow where it will apparently be £8).

If one were to 'touch' on a standalone Oyster reader, for example by a
manual gate, then if the card has not been 'touched-in' within the
past 2 1/2 hours the system will presume that one is starting a new
journey and will debit the full £4/£5/£8 'entry charge' - the concept
being that the appropriate amount is refunded back to one's card when
one completes the journey and touches-out so one will have paid the
correct fare.

If one was to validate on a standalone reader for the first then even
if they were ending their journey they would end up paying the
'penalty' charge because they will not touch-out in the next 2 1/2
hours - this is a so-called "unresolved journey" - and this would
still occur if one were to then almost immediately (or indeed within
the next 2 1/2 hours) use the same Oyster card to enter the
Underground or board a bus, because when one 'touched-in' at the
Underground gates or on the bus in neither instance would that
'resolve' the earlier unfinished journey.

If one were to go through the gate and hence touch-in and almost
immediately go back out through the gate and hence touch-out, one
would still be charged for a journey - though I think one would only
be charged for the cheapest journey from that station (I have done
this at an Underground station and this is what I remember happening).
Bear in mind that if the system were configured to refund the fare in
its entirety if one went in and then straight back out the gates this
would just be a fare dodgers charter if they were heading to an
ungated destination station (and were also working on the basis that
they would avoid any human ticket checks by RPIs or guards ) - they
would enter through the gate and hence touch-in, then touch-out as if
to exit back through the gate but actually turn back around, leaving
the gate open, and go and get on their train having paid and intending
to pay nothing.

The same principle applies to standalone Oyster readers - if all a
second touch on them did was to nullify the fist one, then all people
would do would be to double touch on them the whole time. What's more
with this people could claim ignorance as their defence and say they
had gone back for a second touch because they weren't sure whether it
worked the first time around.

On 23 Dec, 21:50, Chris wrote:

On 23 Dec, 19:03, Mizter T wrote:

The extension of Oyster PAYG to Heathrow Connect does at least put one
little query about Crossrail to bed - the question of whether or not
Oyster could be used to Heathrow on Crossrail. The follow-on question
of whether using Crossrail to Heathrow would attract a surcharge above
and beyond a normal London zonal fare, as will be the case with
Heathrow Connect, remains open.

From conversations that I've had with Crossrail reps & BAA reps,
Crossrail is taking over the HC operation, and fares to Heathrow will
remain the same at changeover. This is because the Heathrow spur is
not part of the National Rail network, but privately owned by BAA. So
the answer to the question above is 'yes' (as it does now)


Sorry I didn't do a very good job of making myself clear. My comments
were written on the assumption that the Heathrow Connect service would
indeed be completely substituted by the new Crossrail service, as is
made clear in the Crossrail masterplan. My point was really about the
question marks some people had held up about whether Crossrail would
be able to ensure that Oyster PAYG could be used to and from Heathrow,
what with the Heathrow section of line being owned by BAA. There had
been some worries that BAA would block the use of Oyster PAYG because
it would mean that passenger's could no longer be charged a premium
for the priviledge of travelling by mainline rail to and from
Heathrow. This arrangement with Heathrow Connect has proven that any
such obstacle is easily surmountable, because Oyster PAYG can easily
be configured to charge a surcharge/premium for such journeys.


Hex is another BAA service & will continue (still charging a higher
premium).


In my earlier comments I tried to draw a dodgy terminological
distinction between a Heathrow Connect "surcharge" for Oyster PAYG
users, and the "premium" charged to travel on the Heathrow Express. I
don't think I have the influence to dictate that my perhaps somewhat
dodgy terminological distinction should be universally adopted
however, so I'll give up on that one right now!


I understand that the link will open up at some stage to other operators
on an open-access agreement some time in the future. Also, the
proposed Airtrack to Terminal 5 will likewise be owned by BAA from
Staines to T5, andagain, attract a premium.


I wonder if this is perchance related to the EU ruling that railways
must open up to all operators by 2010? I'm afraid I'm not at all clued
up on the specifics of this whatsoever, but I am curious about what
railways it applies to - BAA's branch line is classed as a 'private
railway' after all (though I suppose one could argue it is public in
the sense that it is served by public passenger trains).

Mizter T wrote in
:

(It's worth noting that the higher Peak fare will be charged if a
passenger touches-in or out anytime during the relevant Peak time-
window. Buses and trams do not charge peak fares, and the daily price
cap for bus and tram journeys of £3 - £3.30 next year - applies
regardless of the time of day, i.e. there is no peak/off-peak divide
when it comes to bus-only capping. Likewise the paper one day Bus Pass
is valid at any time of the day.)

I trust that's all as clear as the muddy Thames?

Isn't the higher peak fare based on when you start your journey (i,e, touch
in for the first time), not when you touch out or touch intermeadiately?

There are journeys where it is worth having two separate Oyster PrePay
cards (e.g. Watford Junction-Euston-U1 leaving Watford say 17.00) as the
cost of the overall journey (£ 6.50, 2009 fares) is more than the sum of
the parts (£ 3.50 to Euston plus £ 1.60 for U1).

David

On 24 Dec, 02:17, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

It may not be that quick (BAA are fairly stupid), but very few will change
from a crossrail heathrow stopper to catch a premium-priced 'express' for a
16 minute ride instead of a 22 minute one.

In the London - Heathrow direction, I'll grant you that very few will
transfer from Crossrail to Hex. However, I think you'll find that the
majority using Hex over Connect from Paddington currently probably
don't arrive at Padd by tube - but by taxi or private vehicle. Why use
the tube if you can afford Hex over Connect, for the little time
difference? Hex is, and will remain, a premium service - and those
using premium services likely fly business / First (or are on business
expenses, i.e. not paying personally), and use taxis. These people
will continue, even after Crossrail (there's no first class on
Crossrail, which will be like sardine cans in the peaks).

It'll take longer for the folk
arriving at Heathrow to catch on that they are overpaying AND having to
change at Paddington.

My feeling is Connect passengers will transfer to Crossrail, Hex will
remain using Hex in the London direction. THose on business from the
city might change to Crossrail possibly, if they're in a hurry. BUt I
can't see a mass migration as the poster above was suggesting.


The options are either a few crossrail trains going fast to Heathrow after
Paddington, or no HEx.

The former isn't going to happen - read the CRossrail info on their
website.

If you look at total journey time, only someone living on Platform Five at
Paddington will gain much more than 5 minutes by HEx-ing; too few to
maintain a premium service, I suspect.

Which is also currently the case between Hex & Connect, and plenty are
us8ing Hex....as I state above, I doubt the majority currently using
Hex go on at Paddington to use the tube now, far from it, so I think
you're mistaken in your views.

On 24 Dec, 03:16, Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if this is perchance related to the EU ruling that railways
must open up to all operators by 2010? I'm afraid I'm not at all clued
up on the specifics of this whatsoever, but I am curious about what
railways it applies to - BAA's branch line is classed as a 'private
railway' after all (though I suppose one could argue it is public in
the sense that it is served by public passenger trains).

I doubt it - more likely connected with the BAA funding of the line
and the arrangements with Network Rail to maintain it.....BAA Airtrack
from Staines to T5 will purely be Airtrack I understand, for some
years until again, it's opened up for other TOCs to bd to run services
along it. UNtil then, it'll be two from Waterloo & Two from Reading
every hour. Once it gets contracted & built, that is.

On 24 Dec, 09:48, Chris wrote:

On 24 Dec, 03:16, Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if this is perchance related to the EU ruling that railways
must open up to all operators by 2010? I'm afraid I'm not at all clued
up on the specifics of this whatsoever, but I am curious about what
railways it applies to - BAA's branch line is classed as a 'private
railway' after all (though I suppose one could argue it is public in
the sense that it is served by public passenger trains).

I doubt it - more likely connected with the BAA funding of the line
and the arrangements with Network Rail to maintain it.....BAA Airtrack
from Staines to T5 will purely be Airtrack I understand, for some
years until again, it's opened up for other TOCs to bd to run services
along it. UNtil then, it'll be two from Waterloo & Two from Reading
every hour. Once it gets contracted & built, that is.


Though of course the mere fact that Network Rail might be a
maintenance contractor for the line doesn't mean that the line becomes
part of the 'national rail network' - after all, this is the exact
situation that applies on the CTRL where Network Rail is a maintenance
contractor to LCR (well actually they do more than that as they
essentially run the high-speed line under an operations contract from
LCR), though I don't know anyhing about the maintenance arrangements
on the Heathrow spur.

One interesting thing worth noting is that I understand that British
Rail originally had a 30% share in the Heathrow rail link venture, but
this was sold by the dying British Railways Board to BAA in 1996
during the endgame of railway privatisation [1]. I have read
suggestions that the newly created Railtrack wanted to buy back in to
the rail link, I think the logic being that this would allow them to
offer Heathrow as potential destination to other operators, especially
as and when Airtrack got built (i.e. with its attractive promise of
through services via Heathrow) - it is of course worth bearing in mind
the early and heady optimism that was displayed by Railtrack's
expansion plans. Perhaps someone else can fill in some more
information with regards to these purported proto-plans of Railtrack
from back in days of the mid/late 90's?


-----
[1] See paragraph 11 on pages 3 and 4 (PDF):
http://www.competition-commission.or..._ferrovial.pdf

"Chris" wrote
If you look at total journey time, only someone living on Platform Five
at
Paddington will gain much more than 5 minutes by HEx-ing; too few to
maintain a premium service, I suspect.
Which is also currently the case between Hex & Connect, and plenty are
us8ing Hex....as I state above, I doubt the majority currently using
Hex go on at Paddington to use the tube now, far from it, so I think
you're mistaken in your views.

But currently, both start at Paddington; so they take HEx, and as you
suggested, probably arrived by taxi.

But once crossrail is built, many of those taxi-arrivers will find it
quicker, easier and cheaper NOT to go to Paddington at all; certainly 50%+
who arrive from the city and east of that will find it much, much quicker to
board Crossrail at Bond Street or east of there - however much they can
afford a taxi, they won't want to sit in a congestion-charge-free zone for
one and half hours. They'll use crossrail.

And having got as far as Paddington on crossrail, will they change to HEx? I
think not.

Your theory depends a loyalty to Paddington - in fact, Paddington is one of
the main reasons why crossrail will succeeed; most paddington users HATE
paddington; simply because it is in the wrong place for business users; and
even tourists tend to want to go east - and the luxury hotel market is
centred on Russell Square; the west London hotel users will mostly take the
Picc from Heathrow.