The following had me thinking. If your Oyster card has a YPRC discount
on it and you wanted to make the most of your generous z2-6 cap,
( £2.80 I think) how would you get charged on the following journey :

Greenford - Camden Road Return ( changing at Shepherd's Bush for
London Overgorund ).

The single fare listed (£2.20) is for travel through zone 1, but if
you avoided zone 1 and travelled within z2-6 as you would using the LO
interchange, would the Greenford-Camden Road and return to Greenford
be capped at £2.80 or would you pay £4.40 ? Is the system designed to
recognise that the above journey ( by touching in / out at Shepherd's
Bush Overground) does not go through z1and hence will allow the
discounted z2-6 cap ?

Rehmat and salamatsys !
:-)

On 11 Feb, 16:08, wrote:
The following had me thinking. If your Oyster card has a YPRC discount
on it and you wanted to make the most of your generous z2-6 cap,
( £2.80 I think) how would you get charged on the following journey :

The Railcard discounted off-peak z2-6 cap is £3.00 now - see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx


Greenford - Camden *Road Return ( changing at Shepherd's Bush for
London Overground ).

The single fare listed (£2.20) is for travel through zone 1, but if
you avoided zone 1 and travelled within z2-6 as you would using the LO
interchange, would the Greenford-Camden Road *and return to Greenford
be capped at £2.80 or would you pay £4.40 ? Is the system designed to
recognise that the above journey ( by touching in / out at Shepherd's
Bush Overground) does not go through z1and hence will allow the
discounted z2-6 cap ?

At the moment you would be charged the via zone 1 fare - which is
£2.20 Off-Peak or £2.80 Peak. This is because at present each 'station
pair' has a fare defined between them, and the presumption is that a
Greenford to Camden Road journey will go through zone 1, I guess via
the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington and then the NLL to Camden
Road - I'm not sure this is a good presumption for TfL's planners to
have made, but they have so there you go.

In other words a Greenford to Camden Road journey would not qualify
for a z2-6 cap as (for better or for worse) it is defined as being via
zone 1.

*However* there are developments in the pipeline that will hopefully
deal with such situations - this will mean that the Oyster system will
be able to have different fares set for different routes between two
stations, so in the case of the above journey passengers who
interchange at Shepherd's Bush (and thus pass through two gatelines,
one at each station) would be charged the lower via zone 2 fare.

This whole issue came up very recently in a mid-January utl thread
entitled "Preventing outerchange?" - I'd recommend you take a look at
it if you want to know more as it was actually prompted by another
poster's experience of the Shepherd's Bush interchange situation. It
can be seen via GG he
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....f3bbb6dd38486/


Lastly, if you want a workaround for this, then to ensure you qualify
for a z2-6 cap I'd suggest you get off the Central line at White City
and then walk the short distance to Shepherd's Bush LO station - this
can be done either by walking through the new Westfield shopping
centre or by skirting the south side of it (a little bit further but
largely avoids the shops and shoppers). If you were to do this you'd
get charged for two separate journeys - Greenford to White City then
Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) to Camden Road, but you'd obviously then
qualify for the zones 2-6 cap.

Hope that helps.

P.S. A query regarding something I've wondered about - if someone
holding an Oyster card with a Railcard discount loaded on it was to
only make off-peak bus journeys, then would they be capped at the
£3.30 daily bus cap or the £3.00 zones 2-6 cap? Or would they even be
capped at the £3.30 bus cap until they made a Tube/DLR/LO/NR (where
valid) journey when the cap would be reduced to £3.00, i.e. 30p would
be refunded? I guess it's the former as opposed to the latter, but I
don't know for sure!

On Feb 11, 5:10*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Feb, 16:08, wrote:

The following had me thinking. If your Oyster card has a YPRC discount
on it and you wanted to make the most of your generous z2-6 cap,
( £2.80 I think) how would you get charged on the following journey :

The Railcard discounted off-peak z2-6 cap is £3.00 now - see:http://www..tfl.gov.uk/tickets/fares...ares/6769.aspx



Greenford - Camden *Road Return ( changing at Shepherd's Bush for
London Overground ).

The single fare listed (£2.20) is for travel through zone 1, but if
you avoided zone 1 and travelled within z2-6 as you would using the LO
interchange, would the Greenford-Camden Road *and return to Greenford
be capped at £2.80 or would you pay £4.40 ? Is the system designed to
recognise that the above journey ( by touching in / out at Shepherd's
Bush Overground) does not go through z1and hence will allow the
discounted z2-6 cap ?

At the moment you would be charged the via zone 1 fare - which is
£2.20 Off-Peak or £2.80 Peak. This is because at present each 'station
pair' has a fare defined between them, and the presumption is that a
Greenford to Camden Road journey will go through zone 1, I guess via
the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington and then the NLL to Camden
Road - I'm not sure this is a good presumption for TfL's planners to
have made, but they have so there you go.

In other words a Greenford to Camden Road journey would not qualify
for a z2-6 cap as (for better or for worse) it is defined as being via
zone 1.

*However* there are developments in the pipeline that will hopefully
deal with such situations - this will mean that the Oyster system will
be able to have different fares set for different routes between two
stations, so in the case of the above journey passengers who
interchange at Shepherd's Bush (and thus pass through two gatelines,
one at each station) would be charged the lower via zone 2 fare.

This whole issue came up very recently in a mid-January utl thread
entitled "Preventing outerchange?" - I'd recommend you take a look at
it if you want to know more as it was actually prompted by another
poster's experience of the Shepherd's Bush interchange situation. It
can be seen via GG hehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_frm/threa...

Lastly, if you want a workaround for this, then to ensure you qualify
for a z2-6 cap I'd suggest you get off the Central line at White City
and then walk the short distance to Shepherd's Bush LO station - this
can be done either by walking through the new Westfield shopping
centre or by skirting the south side of it (a little bit further but
largely avoids the shops and shoppers). If you were to do this you'd
get charged for two separate journeys - Greenford to White City then
Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) to Camden Road, but you'd obviously then
qualify for the zones 2-6 cap.

Hope that helps.

P.S. A query regarding something I've wondered about - if someone
holding an Oyster card with a Railcard discount loaded on it was to
only make off-peak bus journeys, then would they be capped at the
£3.30 daily bus cap or the £3.00 zones 2-6 cap? Or would they even be
capped at the £3.30 bus cap until they made a Tube/DLR/LO/NR (where
valid) journey when the cap would be reduced to £3.00, i.e. 30p would
be refunded? I guess it's the former as opposed to the latter, but I
don't know for sure!

I'm pretty sure there was a thread on that quite a while back. I
remember predicting the higher (bus) cap (then £3) but the poster who
raised the question reported back that it was the lower.

I suppose I could search the archive ...

On Feb 11, 9:51*pm, MIG wrote:
On Feb 11, 5:10*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On 11 Feb, 16:08, wrote:

The following had me thinking. If your Oyster card has a YPRC discount
on it and you wanted to make the most of your generous z2-6 cap,
( £2.80 I think) how would you get charged on the following journey :

The Railcard discounted off-peak z2-6 cap is £3.00 now - see:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx

Greenford - Camden *Road Return ( changing at Shepherd's Bush for
London Overground ).

The single fare listed (£2.20) is for travel through zone 1, but if
you avoided zone 1 and travelled within z2-6 as you would using the LO
interchange, would the Greenford-Camden Road *and return to Greenford
be capped at £2.80 or would you pay £4.40 ? Is the system designed to
recognise that the above journey ( by touching in / out at Shepherd's
Bush Overground) does not go through z1and hence will allow the
discounted z2-6 cap ?

At the moment you would be charged the via zone 1 fare - which is
£2.20 Off-Peak or £2.80 Peak. This is because at present each 'station
pair' has a fare defined between them, and the presumption is that a
Greenford to Camden Road journey will go through zone 1, I guess via
the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington and then the NLL to Camden
Road - I'm not sure this is a good presumption for TfL's planners to
have made, but they have so there you go.

In other words a Greenford to Camden Road journey would not qualify
for a z2-6 cap as (for better or for worse) it is defined as being via
zone 1.

*However* there are developments in the pipeline that will hopefully
deal with such situations - this will mean that the Oyster system will
be able to have different fares set for different routes between two
stations, so in the case of the above journey passengers who
interchange at Shepherd's Bush (and thus pass through two gatelines,
one at each station) would be charged the lower via zone 2 fare.

This whole issue came up very recently in a mid-January utl thread
entitled "Preventing outerchange?" - I'd recommend you take a look at
it if you want to know more as it was actually prompted by another
poster's experience of the Shepherd's Bush interchange situation. It
can be seen via GG hehttp://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_frm/threa...

Lastly, if you want a workaround for this, then to ensure you qualify
for a z2-6 cap I'd suggest you get off the Central line at White City
and then walk the short distance to Shepherd's Bush LO station - this
can be done either by walking through the new Westfield shopping
centre or by skirting the south side of it (a little bit further but
largely avoids the shops and shoppers). If you were to do this you'd
get charged for two separate journeys - Greenford to White City then
Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) to Camden Road, but you'd obviously then
qualify for the zones 2-6 cap.

Hope that helps.

P.S. A query regarding something I've wondered about - if someone
holding an Oyster card with a Railcard discount loaded on it was to
only make off-peak bus journeys, then would they be capped at the
£3.30 daily bus cap or the £3.00 zones 2-6 cap? Or would they even be
capped at the £3.30 bus cap until they made a Tube/DLR/LO/NR (where
valid) journey when the cap would be reduced to £3.00, i.e. 30p would
be refunded? I guess it's the former as opposed to the latter, but I
don't know for sure!

I'm pretty sure there was a thread on that quite a while back. *I
remember predicting the higher (bus) cap (then £3) but the poster who
raised the question reported back that it was the lower.

I suppose I could search the archive ...

Well I could have saved an extra message.

Here it was http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...7fbdeeb6ba18a9

On 11 Feb, 21:55, MIG wrote:

On Feb 11, 9:51*pm, MIG wrote:

On Feb 11, 5:10*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

P.S. A query regarding something I've wondered about - if someone
holding an Oyster card with a Railcard discount loaded on it was to
only make off-peak bus journeys, then would they be capped at the
£3.30 daily bus cap or the £3.00 zones 2-6 cap? Or would they even be
capped at the £3.30 bus cap until they made a Tube/DLR/LO/NR (where
valid) journey when the cap would be reduced to £3.00, i.e. 30p would
be refunded? I guess it's the former as opposed to the latter, but I
don't know for sure!

I'm pretty sure there was a thread on that quite a while back. *I
remember predicting the higher (bus) cap (then £3) but the poster who
raised the question reported back that it was the lower.

I suppose I could search the archive ...

Well I could have saved an extra message.

Here it was
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...7fbdeeb6ba18a9


Thanks for that MIG. I thought it likely that it would be the lower
cap i.e. the £3.00 Railcard-discounted z2-6 cap as opposed to the
£3.30 bus cap, not least because I don't think there's a mechanism to
refund money back to an Oyster card if they then qualify for a lower
cap essentially because that situation doesn't arise - in other words
one can get bumped up to a higher cap, but not down to a lower cap.

I did try and do an experiment with a Railcard holding acquaintance
last year but in the end the situation on the day prevailed against it
happening, then they later lost their Oyster card and Railcard so I
gave up!

Incidentally I think the author of that post 'Michael' is quite wrong
when he says he reckons that London Buses will lose out as a result of
this revenue being shared with LU/LO/DLR/NR (where valid) - I'm pretty
certain that this wouldn't be the case because as the passenger
wouldn't have used any other transport modes then there'd be no need
for that revenue to be shared out.

The thing is that Oyster PAYG provides for a far more accurate
attribution of revenue than does the Travelcard scheme. If a passenger
buys a zones 2-6 Travelcard then the money will all go in a big pot
and will be shared out according to a complex formula agreed between
TfL and the TOCs based on how a passenger may have used that
Travelcard. With Oyster PAYG a good part of that guesswork can
essentially be removed and the revenue more accurately targeted.

That said there's still a good degree of ambiguity with regards to
what route a passenger may have taken for a journey between A and B,
though thus far this hasn't mattered so much as it'll most likely have
been a choice between a number of different routes all on LU. However
once all of NR in London accepts Oyster PAYG there'll be a whole load
more of these areas of ambiguity regarding presumed routes as each TOC
will want its fair share too. I dare say is part of the reason behind
what must surely have been mind-numbing negotiations between TfL and
the TOCs over its introduction - bear in mind the TOCs are also
looking over their backs at each other as well as dealing with TfL. I
speculate that a new 'pot' will have been created to distribute the
PAYG monies between the TOCs (particularly for 'ambiguous journeys'),
except this will be an even more complex pot compared to the
Travelcard one!

Of course data from the use of season Travelcards on Oyster can feed
into the Travelcard revenue attribution model and I expect that it
already does and will do so more as and when TOCs start selling
Travelcards on Oyster - indeed I wonder if they'll want to try and
enforce a policy of passengers touching-in and out so as to get the
usage data from this, I can imagine they might try and encourage it
though I have my doubts about whether the system might be altered so
that Travelcard holders would actively be penalised for not doing so.
We shall see.

Anyway I digress - thanks for the info again. It makes getting the
Railcard discount loaded onto an Oyster even more worthwhile, though
obviously many Senior Railcard holders will already have free bus
travel (if they're 60+ residents of England). Who'd think a Railcard
could make London bus travel cheaper eh?!

Mizter T wrote :
At the moment you would be charged the via zone 1 fare - which is
£2.20 Off-Peak or £2.80 Peak. This is because at present each 'station
pair' has a fare defined between them, and the presumption is that a
Greenford to Camden Road journey will go through zone 1, I guess via
the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington and then the NLL to Camden
Road - I'm not sure this is a good presumption for TfL's planners to
have made, but they have so there you go.
In other words a Greenford to Camden Road journey would not qualify
for a z2-6 cap as (for better or for worse) it is defined as being via
zone 1.

Thanks for the replies gents. However something else has cropped up.
I was directed to the following post on a Rail Forum :
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthre...t=15974&page=2 reply #21
by "General Zod"

His journey is from Ruislip ( Met / Piccadillly Line) Z5 to
Snaresbrook ( Central Line ) Z4 : defined as as via zone 1 journey /
fare. (£3.80 peak £2.20 off peak)

The journey he takes is Ruislip (Met line) - Finchley Rd --- walks
to Finchley Road and Frognal (LO) -- Stratford (Central line) -
Snaresbrook.

( Finchley Road and Finchley Road and Frognal are valid OOS
interchanges as are Shepherds Bush Underground and Shepherds Bush
LO)

Now this journey and the return were capped at the zone 2-6 fare
( £2.80) even though the Ruislip - Snaresbrook fare was defined as via
zone 1. So there must be a mechanism in place that recognises the
fact that he did not go into Z1 but instead only went as far as z2
(Finchley Road) and travelled solely within z 2-6.

If the z2-6 cap kicked in for the above journey then surely the cap
should also apply for the Greenford -Camden Road via Shepherd Bush LO
interchange ? If the lack of transgression into Z1 was recognised in
the Ruislip-Snaresbrook journey then would it also not be recognised
in the Greenford -Camden Road Journey ?

I am intruiged !
:-)

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:10:42 -0000, Mizter T wrote:


On 11 Feb, 16:08, wrote:
The following had me thinking. If your Oyster card has a YPRC discount
on it and you wanted to make the most of your generous z2-6 cap,
( £2.80 I think) how would you get charged on the following journey :

The Railcard discounted off-peak z2-6 cap is £3.00 now - see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx


Greenford - Camden Â*Road Return ( changing at Shepherd's Bush for
London Overground ).

The single fare listed (£2.20) is for travel through zone 1, but if
you avoided zone 1 and travelled within z2-6 as you would using the LO
interchange, would the Greenford-Camden Road Â*and return to Greenford
be capped at £2.80 or would you pay £4.40 ? Is the system designed to
recognise that the above journey ( by touching in / out at Shepherd's
Bush Overground) does not go through z1and hence will allow the
discounted z2-6 cap ?

At the moment you would be charged the via zone 1 fare - which is
£2.20 Off-Peak or £2.80 Peak. This is because at present each 'station
pair' has a fare defined between them, and the presumption is that a
Greenford to Camden Road journey will go through zone 1, I guess via
the Victoria line to Highbury & Islington and then the NLL to Camden
Road - I'm not sure this is a good presumption for TfL's planners to
have made, but they have so there you go.

In other words a Greenford to Camden Road journey would not qualify
for a z2-6 cap as (for better or for worse) it is defined as being via
zone 1.

*However* there are developments in the pipeline that will hopefully
deal with such situations - this will mean that the Oyster system will
be able to have different fares set for different routes between two
stations, so in the case of the above journey passengers who
interchange at Shepherd's Bush (and thus pass through two gatelines,
one at each station) would be charged the lower via zone 2 fare.

This whole issue came up very recently in a mid-January utl thread
entitled "Preventing outerchange?" - I'd recommend you take a look at
it if you want to know more as it was actually prompted by another
poster's experience of the Shepherd's Bush interchange situation. It
can be seen via GG he
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....f3bbb6dd38486/


Lastly, if you want a workaround for this, then to ensure you qualify
for a z2-6 cap I'd suggest you get off the Central line at White City
and then walk the short distance to Shepherd's Bush LO station - this
can be done either by walking through the new Westfield shopping
centre or by skirting the south side of it (a little bit further but
largely avoids the shops and shoppers). If you were to do this you'd
get charged for two separate journeys - Greenford to White City then
Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) to Camden Road, but you'd obviously then
qualify for the zones 2-6 cap.

In the same thread, you (Mizter T) said that touching in on a bus would
break the outer-change and force a non-zone 1 journey. Couldn't the OP do
that here, between Shep Bush LU and Shep Bush LO, rather than walking
between White City and Shep Bush? (Bearing in mind, the OP is planning a
return journey and so will reach his £3 cap anyway)

--
Fig