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Old May 21st 09, 08:34 AM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

On Thu, 21 May 2009 06:26:06 +0100
"MrBitsy" wrote:
Creating another pointless strike?


Yes.


What trains have you driven? Where did you drive them? Which railway
company do you work for?

How about telling us when you have the safety of hundreds of others to think
about?


Oh put a sock in it. Do you know what the strike is about? They're whinging
that theres no correct side door opening equipment in the trains on the
victoria line. Well guess what:

A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?

B) If doors have been opened on the wrong side perhaps they should be
asking the drivers who did it if they're up to the job if they're apparently
too dumb to be able to tell which side the platform is on since opening the
doors and pressing the start button is all they have to do given the trains
are ATO.

C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.

Oh , and to make their strike seem a bit less pointless they've thrown in
a standard issue side order of alleged "bullying" at seven sisters depot.
Yeah, right. More like managers telling some lazy arsed drivers to get on
with the job they're paid well over the odds to do.

B2003


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Old May 21st 09, 12:03 PM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

On 21 May, 09:34, wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 06:26:06 +0100

"MrBitsy" wrote:
Creating another pointless strike?


Yes.



What trains have you driven? *Where did you drive them? *Which railway
company do you work for?


How about telling us when you have the safety of hundreds of others to think
about?


Oh put a sock in it. Do you know what the strike is about? They're whinging
that theres no correct side door opening equipment in the trains on the
victoria line. Well guess what:

A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?

B) If doors have been opened on the wrong side perhaps they should be
asking the drivers who did it if they're up to the job if they're apparently
too dumb to be able to tell which side the platform is on since opening the
doors and pressing the start button is all they have to do given the trains
are ATO.

C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.

Oh , and to make their strike seem a bit less pointless they've thrown in
a standard issue side order of alleged "bullying" at seven sisters depot.
Yeah, right. More like managers telling some lazy arsed drivers to get on
with the job they're paid well over the odds to do.



I think it's to do with numbers. LU can reduce the wrong-side errors
on most lines through the equipment they now have, but they want to do
it on the cheap on the Victoria by dealing more harshly with drivers
than in the past.

Drivers seem to be saying "either fit the equipment or accept the
level of mistakes that you've always accepted in the past".

Have I misunderstood?
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Old May 21st 09, 01:18 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

[uk.rec.driving removed from x-posting]

On May 21, 1:03*pm, MIG wrote:

On 21 May, 09:34, wrote:

On Thu, 21 May 2009 06:26:06 +0100


"MrBitsy" wrote:
Creating another pointless strike?


Yes.


What trains have you driven? *Where did you drive them? *Which railway
company do you work for?


How about telling us when you have the safety of hundreds of others to think
about?


Oh put a sock in it. Do you know what the strike is about? They're whinging
that theres no correct side door opening equipment in the trains on the
victoria line. Well guess what:


A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?


B) If doors have been opened on the wrong side perhaps they should be
asking the drivers who did it if they're up to the job if they're apparently
too dumb to be able to tell which side the platform is on since opening the
doors and pressing the start button is all they have to do given the trains
are ATO.


C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.


Oh , and to make their strike seem a bit less pointless they've thrown in
a standard issue side order of alleged "bullying" at seven sisters depot.

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Old May 21st 09, 06:48 PM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

wrote in message ...
On Thu, 21 May 2009 06:26:06 +0100
"MrBitsy" wrote:
Creating another pointless strike?


Yes.


What trains have you driven? Where did you drive them? Which railway
company do you work for?

How about telling us when you have the safety of hundreds of others to
think
about?


Oh put a sock in it. Do you know what the strike is about? They're
whinging
that theres no correct side door opening equipment in the trains on the
victoria line. Well guess what:

A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why
didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?


Why hasn't the problem been fixed in 42 years?

B) If doors have been opened on the wrong side perhaps they should be
asking the drivers who did it if they're up to the job if they're
apparently
too dumb to be able to tell which side the platform is on since opening
the
doors and pressing the start button is all they have to do given the
trains
are ATO.


Any one with the slightest bit of intelligence will understand the concept
of mistakes, when the task at hand is repeated thousands of times. You will
make similiar mistakes in your daily life, but at least others safety
doesn't suffer because of it.

How do you explain pilots landing with wheels up, ships colliding with
experienced captains and other very experienced people making fundamental
mistakes - are they just 'dumb'?

C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.


In two years, this mistake is likely to happen again - I hope it is not
someone you love who may be injured.

Oh , and to make their strike seem a bit less pointless they've thrown in
a standard issue side order of alleged "bullying" at seven sisters depot.
Yeah, right. More like managers telling some lazy arsed drivers to get on
with the job they're paid well over the odds to do.


What experience have you of railway management? What experience are you
using to make a judgment this bullying is not taking place?


--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

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Old May 21st 09, 06:49 PM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 21 May, 09:34, wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 06:26:06 +0100

"MrBitsy" wrote:
Creating another pointless strike?


Yes.



What trains have you driven? Where did you drive them? Which railway
company do you work for?


How about telling us when you have the safety of hundreds of others to
think
about?


Oh put a sock in it. Do you know what the strike is about? They're
whinging
that theres no correct side door opening equipment in the trains on the
victoria line. Well guess what:

A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why
didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?

B) If doors have been opened on the wrong side perhaps they should be
asking the drivers who did it if they're up to the job if they're
apparently
too dumb to be able to tell which side the platform is on since opening
the
doors and pressing the start button is all they have to do given the
trains
are ATO.

C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.

Oh , and to make their strike seem a bit less pointless they've thrown in
a standard issue side order of alleged "bullying" at seven sisters depot.
Yeah, right. More like managers telling some lazy arsed drivers to get on
with the job they're paid well over the odds to do.



I think it's to do with numbers. LU can reduce the wrong-side errors
on most lines through the equipment they now have, but they want to do
it on the cheap on the Victoria by dealing more harshly with drivers
than in the past.

Drivers seem to be saying "either fit the equipment or accept the
level of mistakes that you've always accepted in the past".

Have I misunderstood?


No you haven't.

--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi



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Old May 21st 09, 07:46 PM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

"MrBitsy" wrote in message


C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time
anyway.


In two years, this mistake is likely to happen again - I hope it is
not someone you love who may be injured.


It would take longer to modify the current stock than they will remain
in service. The demand is simply absurd. In any case, with a line
entirely in tunnel, the risk to pax is less than on any line with
surface or double-track tunnel running. Of all the bizarre Crow-****,
this must be the worst.


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Old May 21st 09, 10:16 PM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The demand is simply absurd. In any case, with a line
entirely in tunnel, the risk to pax is less than on any line with
surface or double-track tunnel running. Of all the bizarre Crow-****,
this must be the worst.


You *really* should look at details of the dispute. Not just take The
Mail's word for it.

For your education it's very difficult to find out the true facts behind
any industrial dispute. The press, as with everything else, tell the
'facts' the public want to hear.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW 12

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Old May 21st 09, 11:12 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

Dave Plowman wrote on 21 May 2009 23:16:59 ...
In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The demand is simply absurd. In any case, with a line
entirely in tunnel, the risk to pax is less than on any line with
surface or double-track tunnel running. Of all the bizarre Crow-****,
this must be the worst.


You *really* should look at details of the dispute. Not just take The
Mail's word for it.


Ideally, yes. Perhaps you can tell us where to find such details, as
they are not even on the RMT site. Do you disagree with the TfL press
release on the subject?

For your education it's very difficult to find out the true facts behind
any industrial dispute. The press, as with everything else, tell the
'facts' the public want to hear.


No, they tell the facts that are available to them. If the RMT did a
better job of explaining what really happened, instead of going on
strike ostensibly because LU haven't fitted a safety feature to
42-year-old trains that are about to be replaced, then we would have a
better chance of understanding the "true facts". But then the RMT
aren't really interested in us.

[crosspost to uk.rec.driving removed, since off-topic for them]
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
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Old May 22nd 09, 12:20 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further


On May 22, 12:12*am, "Richard J." wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote on 21 May 2009 23:16:59 ...

In article ,
* *Recliner wrote:
*The demand is simply absurd. In any case, with a line
entirely in tunnel, the risk to pax is less than on any line with
surface or double-track tunnel running. Of all the bizarre Crow-****,
this must be the worst.


You *really* should look at details of the dispute. Not just take The
Mail's word for it.


Ideally, yes. *Perhaps you can tell us where to find such details, as
they are not even on the RMT site. *Do you disagree with the TfL press
release on the subject?


I'm sure Mr Plowman would say that the TfL press release only tells
part of the story. Indeed, as reasonable as it sounds, I imagine
there's more to this dispute than that (i.e. a more general breakdown
in relations between management and some staff etc - note that I'm not
saying the management's at fault, nor am I saying they're perfect, I'm
just saying that a TfL press release cannot possibly explore all of
this).


For your education it's very difficult to find out the true facts behind
any industrial dispute. The press, as with everything else, tell the
'facts' the public want to hear.


No, they tell the facts that are available to them. *If the RMT did a
better job of explaining what really happened, instead of going on
strike ostensibly because LU haven't fitted a safety feature to
42-year-old trains that are about to be replaced, then we would have a
better chance of understanding the "true facts". *But then the RMT
aren't really interested in us.


The problem for the RMT is that it wouldn't look too good for them to
go big on what (I think) this dispute is really about - which is that
they are objecting to heavier disciplinary procedures for train
operators if they do something wrong. If this is what the RMT told the
public, the public might well just turn back and ask the RMT what
exactly is wrong with their members being disciplined for doing
something that could affect safety.

And, to be fair it's easy for members of the public to say "well train
operators should be capable of concentrating and opening the doors on
the right side" without taking into account the quasi-hypnotic nature
of watching tube tunnels for hours on end.

In essence the RMT is somewhat stymied from publicly making its
argument for fear of a public backlash.

Of course the information from LU suggests that the RMT are also
trying to have a driver who was somewhat less than truthful during a
disciplinary reinstated. LU are suggesting this is the root cause,
though I can imagine there might be other things causing tension too -
but it's also easy to come to the conclusion that this is the RMT
pitching in for a battle of willpower against LU, trying to get this
driver reinstated so as to prove that they are the ever mighty union.

What I would be curious to know is how many wrong-side door openings
there have been on the Victoria line in recent years. Could that be an
FOI request?


[crosspost to uk.rec.driving removed, since off-topic for them]


Who x-posted to them in the first place!
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Old May 22nd 09, 08:43 AM posted to uk.rec.driving,uk.transport.london
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Default Commuters suffer while Crowe inflates his ego even further

On Thu, 21 May 2009 19:48:43 +0100
"MrBitsy" wrote:
A) There hasn't been since they were built since 42 years ago so why
didn't
the RMT see fit to go on strike in 1967?


Why hasn't the problem been fixed in 42 years?


It wasn't a "problem" until recently, just like a load of other nonsense
the health and safety culture has come up with.

How do you explain pilots landing with wheels up, ships colliding with


When was the last time a commercial airliner landed with its wheels up
because the crew forgot to lower them??

experienced captains and other very experienced people making fundamental
mistakes - are they just 'dumb'?


No , they're careless and should be fired. Making mistakes in a stressful
situation with a lot going on is one thing - not bothering to check which
side the flippin platform is on when you're doing bugger all else anyway
except possibly reading a copy of The Sun under the control desk is something
else entirely.

Incidentaly, are you seriously trying to compare operating an automatic tube
train to flying an airliner or captaining a ship??

C) The trains are due to be replaced in a couple of years time anyway.


In two years, this mistake is likely to happen again - I hope it is not
someone you love who may be injured.


Oh , woah is me, those heart strings pluck so mournfully...

Not.

What experience have you of railway management? What experience are you
using to make a judgment this bullying is not taking place?


This "bullying" argument seems to end up as an orderve on most RMT strikes.
Either working for LUL is similar to being in Stalins russia or the RMT are
full of ****. I know which option I'd go for.

B2003



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