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Old August 5th 09, 09:19 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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I dont't need to invent nonsense regarding Bob Crowe - his own idiocy
is more than enough for me.


Bob Crow may be odious, but he's certainly not an idiot. He's well paid,
probably popular with his members (for whom he delivers increased wages
and holidays on fine days when there's good sport on the telly) and is
possibly the best known trade unionist in Britain. I suppose he's the
communist equivalent of Michael O'Leary, who is also very successful in
what he sets out to do.


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Old August 5th 09, 09:28 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:19:17 +0100
"Recliner" wrote:
Bob Crow may be odious, but he's certainly not an idiot. He's well paid,
probably popular with his members (for whom he delivers increased wages
and holidays on fine days when there's good sport on the telly) and is
possibly the best known trade unionist in Britain. I suppose he's the
communist equivalent of Michael O'Leary, who is also very successful in
what he sets out to do.


Bob Crowe isn't the only problem - the union "members" are too. Theres far
too many militant idiots who seem to think they deserve endless payrises
and unjustifiable conditions of work and constantly vote to go on strike.
Reality should be introduced into the rail industry with the idea of a job
for life firmly booted into touch. All new workers in the industry should
be hired on a rolling contract basis - no more permanent employment. And if
they cause trouble or don't want to do their jobs then the contract isn't
renewed and someone else from the 3 million unemployed in this country
takes their place.

B2003

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Old August 5th 09, 10:27 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Aug 5, 10:28*am, wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:19:17 +0100

"Recliner" wrote:
Bob Crow may be odious, but he's certainly not an idiot. He's well paid,
probably popular with his members (for whom he delivers increased wages
and holidays on fine days when there's good sport on the telly) and is
possibly the best known trade unionist in Britain. I suppose he's the
communist equivalent of Michael O'Leary, who is also very successful in
what he sets out to do.


Bob Crowe isn't the only problem - the union "members" are too. Theres far
too many militant idiots who seem to think they deserve endless payrises
and unjustifiable conditions of work and constantly vote to go on strike.
Reality should be introduced into the rail industry with the idea of a job
for life firmly booted into touch. All new workers in the industry should
be hired on a rolling contract basis - no more permanent employment. And if
they cause trouble or don't want to do their jobs then the contract isn't
renewed and someone else from the 3 million unemployed in this country
takes their place.


And your proposal to get there from where we are now without having
months of 'no trains at all' is...?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org
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Old August 5th 09, 10:35 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
John B wrote:
And your proposal to get there from where we are now without having
months of 'no trains at all' is...?


Don't know. I guess it depends how much fuss the unions would make about
non unionised contractors slowly replacing their members through natural
wastage when they retire or leave. There might even be some union members
who'd be happy to switch to contracting - as in other areas of work - the
contract rates were significantly higher than the permi rates. And once you
get to a certain percentage of contract staff you've got the unions over a
barrel.

B2003

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Old August 5th 09, 10:47 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
John B wrote:
And your proposal to get there from where we are now without having
months of 'no trains at all' is...?


Don't know. I guess it depends how much fuss the unions would make
about non unionised contractors slowly replacing their members
through natural wastage when they retire or leave. There might even
be some union members who'd be happy to switch to contracting - as in
other areas of work - the contract rates were significantly higher
than the permi rates. And once you get to a certain percentage of
contract staff you've got the unions over a barrel.


You usually need to do something more dramatic than that. Reagan dealt
with striking air traffic controllers by sacking them all, but US
aviation was disrupted for quite a while before they could be fully
replaced (air force controllers could only provide a partial, short-term
substitute). Murdoch defeated the Fleet Street printing unions, but he
had to build a complete new production plant in Wapping, and still had
battles with the unions for years. Thatcher dealt with the mining unions
by shutting down the pits.

I can't see how the railways could do anything like that these days.
Privatisation was meant to weaken the railway unions, and maybe it has
in parts, but train drivers still strike. However, at least we no longer
have nationwide rail strikes.




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Old August 5th 09, 09:53 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Recliner wrote:

Privatisation was meant to weaken the railway unions, and maybe it has
in parts, but train drivers still strike. However, at least we no longer
have nationwide rail strikes.


Arguably privatisation - or at least fragmentation - has actually made
drivers stronger, as they can play off the employers to get a good deal.
Driver training is time consuming and expensive, so at least in the
recent past poaching someone else's drivers through better pay or
conditions was worth doing.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
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Old August 6th 09, 10:02 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:53:33 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

Recliner wrote:

Privatisation was meant to weaken the railway unions, and maybe it has
in parts, but train drivers still strike. However, at least we no longer
have nationwide rail strikes.


Arguably privatisation - or at least fragmentation - has actually made
drivers stronger, as they can play off the employers to get a good deal.
Driver training is time consuming and expensive, so at least in the
recent past poaching someone else's drivers through better pay or
conditions was worth doing.



Absolutely.

Drivers' pay leapt after privatisation because it was more expensive
to train up your own drivers than to poach someone else's. The result
was a lot of grossly overpaid train drivers.

Bus drivers have a far more difficult job yet get paid much less,
typically only slightly more than half the wages of train drivers.

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Old August 5th 09, 12:24 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 5 Aug, 10:28, wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:19:17 +0100

"Recliner" wrote:
Bob Crow may be odious, but he's certainly not an idiot. He's well paid,
probably popular with his members (for whom he delivers increased wages
and holidays on fine days when there's good sport on the telly) and is
possibly the best known trade unionist in Britain. I suppose he's the
communist equivalent of Michael O'Leary, who is also very successful in
what he sets out to do.


Bob Crowe isn't the only problem - the union "members" are too. Theres far
too many militant idiots who seem to think they deserve endless payrises
and unjustifiable conditions of work and constantly vote to go on strike.
Reality should be introduced into the rail industry with the idea of a job
for life firmly booted into touch. All new workers in the industry should
be hired on a rolling contract basis - no more permanent employment. And if
they cause trouble or don't want to do their jobs then the contract isn't
renewed and someone else from the 3 million unemployed in this country
takes their place.

B2003


The bankers and company directors have the entire establishment
ensuring that they continue to receive huge pay rises, jobs for life,
bonuses that disguise their true salaries and all the other benefits
of being the right sort of chap.

The wrong sort of chaps have nothing but the unions, for which they
have to pay membership fees, and which usually fail anyway, because
their leaders are bought off by the right sort of chaps.

It seems to me that the objection isn't to people looking after their
own interests, but to the concept of the wrong sort of chaps being in
a position to do so.
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Old August 5th 09, 12:56 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Theres nowt as dumb as LUL

On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 05:24:08 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote:
The bankers and company directors have the entire establishment
ensuring that they continue to receive huge pay rises, jobs for life,
bonuses that disguise their true salaries and all the other benefits
of being the right sort of chap.

The wrong sort of chaps have nothing but the unions, for which they
have to pay membership fees, and which usually fail anyway, because
their leaders are bought off by the right sort of chaps.


Damn , and I forgot my violin...

It seems to me that the objection isn't to people looking after their
own interests, but to the concept of the wrong sort of chaps being in
a position to do so.


The 1970s called ,they want their rhetoric back.

I don't see any difference between high up bankers and the unions. They both
have others by the balls and expect unrealistic settlements for doing a
lousy job or less work. At least the bankers can be let go at the end of
their contracts however , golden payoff or not, and the whole bank doesn't
go on strike because of it.

B2003

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Old August 5th 09, 02:14 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 5 Aug, 13:56, wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 05:24:08 -0700 (PDT)

MIG wrote:
The bankers and company directors have the entire establishment
ensuring that they continue to receive huge pay rises, jobs for life,
bonuses that disguise their true salaries and all the other benefits
of being the right sort of chap.


The wrong sort of chaps have nothing but the unions, for which they
have to pay membership fees, and which usually fail anyway, because
their leaders are bought off by the right sort of chaps.


Damn , and I forgot my violin...

It seems to me that the objection isn't to people looking after their
own interests, but to the concept of the wrong sort of chaps being in
a position to do so.


The 1970s called ,they want their rhetoric back.

I don't see any difference between high up bankers and the unions.


Where does one start?

Size of resources and representation in all parts of the establishment
are worth considering.

They both
have others by the balls and expect unrealistic settlements for doing a
lousy job or less work.


No; bankers just take bets on other people's work. RMT members do
actually do a job (even if you don't like the way they do it) and
create the wealth that the bankers take bets on.

At least the bankers can be let go at the end of
their contracts however , golden payoff or not, and the whole bank doesn't
go on strike because of it.

B2003




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