On Jan 3, 9:21*pm, MIG wrote:


Would it be removed at Balham though? *Balham is in the zones and the
route could have been via Finsbury Park. *It doesn't seem likely that
it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out
at an NR-only station in zone 1.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ah, Balham... the real issue with Oyster PAYG is the differential in
fares between different routes between what appear to the general user
as the same two stations in the same zone according to TfL's new
Oyster map. How is that general user supposed to understand that
travel between those two stations might cost different amounts? As an
e.g. Oxford Circus and Balham costs £2.70 Monday to Friday from 0630
to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 and £2.40 At all other times including
public holidays travelling wholly by tube and £3.70 Monday to Friday
from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 and £3.10 At all other times
including public holidays changing to Southern at London Victoria.
However travel between Oxford Circus and Finsbury Park is the same
price whether or not you change to FCC at Kings Cross. You need a
masters degree in the fares manuals to figure out the permutations and
few will know about the TfL fares finder still less check it for each
unusual journey.

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 15:22:05 -0600,
wrote:

You cannot register Gold Cards or Network Cards onto Oyster cards

Another stupidity then.

It is bloody silly. I don't see why the system can't cope with just
giving a weekend discount on the Network Card cap.

Why shouldn't it give discounts at all off-peak times, or indeed at all
time s after 10:00 as is done for paper tickets?

The new rules are more batty than the old. I occasionally take the train
from the office in Westminster to Putney. I might do so tomorrow evening,
after 19:00.

I used to use the District line from St James's Park to East Putney at
£1.60 (now £1.80) using Oyster in preference to Vauxhall to Putney at
£1.70 cash but now my Senior Railcard is loaded onto my oyster Card I can
take SWT from Waterloo to Putney for just £1.15 (and just £0.85 from
Vauxhall).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote:

On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote:
It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?

Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard
holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two
(or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline
en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket
could see some non-optimal charges as well.

Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23
Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath
(Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from
the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and
travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the
touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a
second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling
out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern.

Would it be removed at Balham though? Balham is in the zones and the
route could have been via Finsbury Park. It doesn't seem likely that
it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out
at an NR-only station in zone 1.

Hmm. If that's the case it means that if you have a Z23 Travelcard and
want to travel from Kentish Town to Herne Hill, you need an OEP for
the journey, but the OEP is not removed at the end of the journey, so
you're stuck with it and have to go out of your way to get rid of it.

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:40:38 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
MIG writes

My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. That opinion hasn't changed.

While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think
that will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first
announced it was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need
an OEP was incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the
procedure difficult, of course, but it is not necessarily an
Oyster-stopping issue.

I suspect as franchises are renewed (as seen with SN recently), DfT will
work towards having all stations in the zonal area fitted with barriers, at
which time OEPs will become redundant?

They'd only become redundant if the stations were also staffed while
open, since the barriers would have to be left open while the station
is unstaffed, which at many stations is most or all of the time.

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:02:13 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote:

On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.

Nor is Waterloo (W&C).

And aren't there a few stations (Bank?) where the lifts allow you to
bypass the gateline?

On 3 Jan, 21:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:02:13 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson

wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:
But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at *West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.

Nor are any of the cross platform interchanges with TOCs or within
barrier line interchanges with DLR and London Overground. *The reason
these interchanges were not done was cost / practicality.

For this reason I do not see every TOC station in the zones ever being
gated either. *There are far too many small ticket halls and side
entrances (created when BR destaffed stations years and years ago) to
make it remotely feasible to put gates everywhere. *And that's before
you get to the controversial places like Lewisham where South Eastern
seem to have run into an unholy row over closing off a well used but
unmanned entrance / exit.

They've defied the ruling and closed it anyway.

On 3 Jan, 13:06, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Well, in the OEP staff briefing it says, in one place
"Once the OEP is loaded, when the customer touches-in to start a
journey even if it is within a Zone covered by their Season ticket, an
entry charge will be deducted from the card.
If they touch-out still within the Zonal coverage of their Season
ticket, the entry charge will be refunded and the OEP will remain on
the card. If they touch-out in another Zone the fare for the
additional travel will be deducted from the entry charge, the PAYG
balance will be adjusted accordingly and the OEP will be cancelled."

Okay the nightmare station for Oyster - Wimbledon. What if you have a stored
OEP but enter the barriers to use the tram?

Hopefully the platform Tramlink validator would reset it when touched
in there.

A few notes on OEP behaviour:

having one set flashes up your PAYG balance on entry when using the
newer gates even when in your Travelcard zones

Tube and rail journeys within Travelcard zones made while an OEP is
set now appear on the online journey history.

lt seems that the instruction to only set prior to the journey to be
extended is not mandatory, but is to avoid customer confusion.

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote:

On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote:
It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?

Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard
holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two
(or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline
en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket
could see some non-optimal charges as well.

Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23
Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath
(Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from
the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and
travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the
touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a
second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling
out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern.

Would it be removed at Balham though? Balham is in the zones and the
route could have been via Finsbury Park. It doesn't seem likely that
it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out
at an NR-only station in zone 1.

Hmm. If that's the case it means that if you have a Z23 Travelcard and
want to travel from Kentish Town to Herne Hill, you need an OEP for
the journey, but the OEP is not removed at the end of the journey, so
you're stuck with it and have to go out of your way to get rid of it.

Ignoring OEPs for the moment, what happened previously when people with
doughnut shaped travelcard validity made a journey that crossed the central
area?

Paul S

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:40:38 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
MIG writes

My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. That opinion hasn't changed.

While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think
that will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first
announced it was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need
an OEP was incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the
procedure difficult, of course, but it is not necessarily an
Oyster-stopping issue.

I suspect as franchises are renewed (as seen with SN recently), DfT will
work towards having all stations in the zonal area fitted with barriers,
at
which time OEPs will become redundant?

They'd only become redundant if the stations were also staffed while
open, since the barriers would have to be left open while the station
is unstaffed, which at many stations is most or all of the time.

The same recent franchise changes also provide for increased staffing hours
though...

Paul S

On Jan 3, 7:09*pm, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:



Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *

And Finchley Central (Station Road exit, something about a gas main?)
and Woodside Park (Northbound platform only, lack of space?).

David