On 26/02/2012 21:05, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:09:37 -0600, Stephen Sprunk put finger to keyboard
and typed:

On 26-Feb-12 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In , at 18:32:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Adam H. remarked:
What do you do ... at a restaurant, when the tip amount to be charged
is not known until later,

In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That's completely different to the UK. Here (assuming we're paying by card,
not cash), the process is:

1. The waiter hands you the bill without a tip line.

2. You insert your card into a handheld CNP terminal. (Depending on the
restaurant, the terminal will either be brought to your table - they are
wireless - or you will go to a payment station with your card. Obviously,
the more upmarket the restaurant the more likely it is that they'll bring
the terminal to you - going to a payment station is more likely in the
likes of Pizza Hut).

3. The waiter rings up the total excluding a tip, then hands you the
terminal.

4. The terminal now gives you two options: Pay the amount as stated, or add
an additional sum.

5. If you choose to add a tip, you enter the amount into the terminal
yourself. The terminal then displays a new total.

6. Once you are happy with the amount you are paying, you press the
"confirm" button.

7. The terminal then prompts you for your PIN.

8. You enter the PIN, wait a few moments while the transaction is
authorised and then the terminal prints a receipt[1]. The receipt includes
the amount of the tip.

You only enter your PIN once, after the final amount (including tip) has
been calculated. And there is only one payment receipt.

[1] Or, of course, declines your card or rejects the PIN. In which case,
you'd better have an alternative method of paymenht :-)

Mark

Many places try to put a 12.5% service charge onto the bill now, but
that is completely optional and you can request to have it removed.

In message , at 19:13:06 on Sun,
26 Feb 2012, Graeme Wall remarked:
Tescos in UK have a facility to "Pay at Pump" You insert your credit
card and enter PIN and then fill up and drive off.

We've covered that in other postings - Tesco (and a multitude of similar
vendors) reserve probably £99 when you "log in to" the self-service
petrol pump, then make the actual charge when you've finished.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:30:31 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

The pumps had a sign suggesting that Electron card users put in at least
GBP 20 worth or else a larger amount of the balance on the associated
account would remain earmarked for a few days.

Sounds like they're authorizing the card for GBP 20, as discussed
elsewhere in this thread.

Not authorising, because that's "Electron" is a debit card on an account
which doesn't allow an overdraft. They will be deducting the £20
straight away, and allowing only up to £20 of fuel. If you buy less, it
sometimes takes a while for them to credit it you with the balance.
--
Roland Perry

Stephen Sprunk wrote:

Some banks still issue real ATM cards on request, but many
can't/won't.

Spouse just received a letter from her credit union stating that they were
replacing all ATM cards with Visa branded debit cards. Something to do with
requirements in the recently passed Dodd/Frank Consumer Extortion^H^H^H^H^H^H
Protection bill.

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:37:44 +0000, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
typed:

In message , at 13:59:20 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Also, at least in the US, ATM cards have been mostly supplanted by debit
cards. Some "ATM" cards are really debit cards with a $0 "purchase"
limit. Some banks still issue real ATM cards on request, but many
can't/won't.

Cards that only work in ATMs are almost unknown in the UK. They are
usually general purpose debit cards too (and you can get cash advances
on credit cards).

You can get them on some savings accounts, in order to be able to withdraw
cash but not make payments. I've got one that works like that, although I
rarely use it.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:46:48 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 00:33:53 on
Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
http://conversation.which.co.uk/mone...tactless-card/
refers to a PIN being used for any transaction over 15 UKP or any
taking the running daily total over 50 UKP.

The £50 limit is mentioned in a blog comment, I think I'd like to see
the words coming from a bank.

£50 sounds a lot like "the average amount you'll run up before meeting a
random PIN check". Do any of the banks publish the algorithm?

Barclays themselves seem to present it as a random check but various
reports/reviews/etc. by third parties on an assortment of dates imply
a 50 UKP cumulative "trigger" which presumably does not need all
following transactions on the same day to be PINned unless they also
trigger any warning signs typical of fraudulent activity.

Does the card accumulate a daily total to police this £50 limit? I
hadn't heard that.

"For example, a pre-set limit for Visa payWave transactions will be
set by the card issuer. This limit is automatically reset each time a
standard chip and PIN transaction is conducted. If this pre-set limit
is ever exceeded, the Visa payWave terminal will automatically ask for
a chip and PIN transaction to be conducted."
[http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardhol...ave/faqs.aspx]

That does not directly match Barclays's version but does seem to imply
that the card "knows" what limit it was last advised. Not being able
to balance that against following waved transactions would seem to be
a major opportunity to make a series of small transactions before it
became necessary or possible to "phone home" again. Unless there is a
mobile 'phone connection (or an offline CandP enabled terminal ?) this
presumably means you are stuffed if you pass your limit trying to pay
on a train or bus.

Haven't seen Amex with a proximity card yet, though will be sure to keep
an eye out.

I have one in my wallet, issued in the U.S.

My UK Amex has no chip at all, but they say that when they send me a new
card next month, it'll be chip+pin.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

On 26-Feb-12 15:35, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:33:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If the charge isn't paid, the merchant isn't paid.

Wrong. If the charge is accepted by the issuing bank, the merchant gets
paid by their processor, period.

What if there's a later chargeback?

Chargebacks are debited from the merchant's account with the card
processor. If the merchant's account is closed with a negative balance
(eg. due to excessive chargebacks), the debt is collected through the
usual channels.

Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 15:44, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:50:33 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
I use credit cards in foreign countries regularly. This was due to it
being an electrical retailer without C&P (which you would not expect in
the USA anyway), and not either the amount or the location.

Did you mean _electronics_ retailer?

No really. They sold fridges and washing machines too. Which are hardly
"electronics".

It's a blurry line. Best Buy, for instance, is classified as an
electronics retailer even though they sell home appliances. OTOH,
Wal-Mart is _not_ classified as an electronics retailer, even though
they probably sell more electronics than Best Buy, because most of their
revenue comes from other departments.

In the end, what really matters to a card processor is the chargeback
rate. Referring to correlations with vague things like "industry"
allows generalization when specifics don't really matter.

I did think about trying a different card.

It probably wouldn't have helped, unless the transaction was flagged by
the issuing bank rather than the card processor.

It must be flagged by the bank, because banks are the people you are
supposed to tell when you go abroad. I doubt they in turn pre-emptively
inform every card processor in the part of the world you are travelling to.

The card processor would know the identity and nationality of the
issuing bank, though, and may have flagged the transaction themselves.

And yet I can routinely buy things (expensive as well as cheap) in the
UK from electrical retailers, without any referral to the card company.

I don't get a "referral" to my bank at US retailers; however, they do
ask for photo ID, match it to the name on the card, closely scrutinize
my signature and compare it to _both_ my credit card and ID, and get an
imprint of the credit card--despite swiping it, which makes an imprint
unnecessary at other merchants.

It would be a "referral" if they were instructed to do that by the card
company on a transaction by transaction basis.

I'm not aware of such steps being done on a per-transaction basis, eg.
depending on the card number or payment amount.

Would they really do all that if you were buying was a $5 pack of AA
batteries?

In theory, yes; those merchants are required by their card processor to
take those steps for _all_ card transactions, and being discovered not
doing so could cause their fees to rise or their merchant account to be
closed. They'd rather annoy customers and potentially lose that one $5
sale than lose all their (much larger) card sales, which would likely
result in bankruptcy.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Exactly. I don't know how a restaurant could do an earlier estimated
reservation of funds, when the only time you give the server your card
is either at the till on the way out, or at the table when he brings the
wireless terminal to you.

That would require a significant change to the way US restaurants work.

In Canada, where the restaurant culture is pretty much the same as in
the U.S., now that they have chip+pin, when you pay, they bring the
terminal to you and let you enter the tip before you enter the PIN.
It doesn't seem to have been a big deal.

I don't see why US restaurants would object, particularly since they'll
likely get fewer chargebacks with customer entered PINs and less opportunity
for staff to accidentally or deliberately mis-enter the tip.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly