Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukand click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Mar 8, 12:19*am, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclick on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? *It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

On Mar 8, 12:55 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:19 am, "Richard J." wrote:



Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclickon Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

That's "Using a season ticket on your Oyster card."

Otherwise no one needs to touch in anywhere; he, when asked, just
needs to say he has travelled from a DLR station.

On Mar 8, 1:16*am, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:55 am, MIG wrote:





On Mar 8, 12:19 am, "Richard J." wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclickonTickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? *It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. *If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

That's "Using a season ticket on your Oyster card."

Otherwise no one needs to touch in anywhere; he, when asked, just
needs to say he has travelled from a DLR station.-

I can't think of any situation in which someone with a travelcard
valid for their DLR journey could avoid any fares by not touching in.
They would be charged a maximum fare if they touched out somewhere
that required PAYG on top of their travelcard.

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

The assumption of guilt when stepping onto public transport is one of
the things that makes it unattractive, but even RPOs don't take the
attitude to touching in with travelcards that you do.

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

"Offramp" wrote in message
...
On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

County Sheriffs of Colorado?
Canadian Sidecar Owners Club?
Consolidated Space Operations Centers?

Nope, I give up

tim

On Mar 8, 4:55 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"Offramp" wrote in message

...

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

County Sheriffs of Colorado?
Canadian Sidecar Owners Club?
Consolidated Space Operations Centers?

Nope, I give up

tim

It is actually short for "Conditions of Carriage."

On Mar 8, 4:38*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that *a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? None of them could prove it.

On Mar 8, 7:10 pm, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 4:38 pm, Offramp wrote:



On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

Inspectors don't just look for a green light - they are also looking
for where the Oyster was last used (among other things). An inspector
would ask if there was no station of ingress shown and may well ask
for an address if he thinks fare evasion has taken place.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? None of them could prove it.

There is no need to arrest everyone in the world, and I don't quite
see how my logic and the logic of the conditions of carriage could be
stretched to being a demand to arrest everyone in the world.
What the Cs-of-C ask for is that everyone with an Oyster has to touch
in where there are validators. It is in the section under 'Season
tickets'.
That way, our hypothetical man who travels from Finchley Central every
day with a zones 1 & 2 weekly, but who says he has travelled from
Prince Regent, can have his penalty fare.

I know that you will reply again saying that the Conditions of
Carriage are nonsensical and that everyone is happy, but those are
things for you to take up with Tfl's legal department. All I have done
is point out the relevant section and given at least one good reason
why that section would be there.

On Mar 8, 7:58*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 7:10 pm, MIG wrote:





On Mar 8, 4:38 pm, Offramp wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that *a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. *Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

Inspectors don't just look for a green light - they are also looking
for where the Oyster was last used (among other things). An inspector
would ask if there was no station of ingress shown and may well ask
for an address if he thinks fare evasion has taken place.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? *None of them could prove it.

There is no need to arrest everyone in the world, and I don't quite
see how my logic and the logic of the conditions of carriage could be
stretched to being a demand to arrest everyone in the world.
What the Cs-of-C ask for is that everyone with an Oyster has to touch
in where there are validators. It is in the section under 'Season
tickets'.
That way, our hypothetical man who travels from Finchley Central every
day with a zones 1 & 2 weekly, but who says he has travelled from
Prince Regent, can have his penalty fare.

I know that you will reply again saying that the Conditions of
Carriage are nonsensical and that everyone is happy, but those are
things for you to take up with Tfl's legal department. All I have done
is point out the relevant section and given at least one good reason
why that section would be there

You accused people of fare-evasion for using travelcards on the DLR
without touching in.

I asked you for an example of how someone whose DLR journey is covered
by a travelcard can evade a fare by not touching in on the DLR.

Your response involved a simple case of fare-evasion between Finchley
Central and zone 2 and no DLR travel.