On Mar 8, 7:58*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 7:10 pm, MIG wrote:



On Mar 8, 4:38 pm, Offramp wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that *a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. *Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

Inspectors don't just look for a green light - they are also looking
for where the Oyster was last used (among other things). An inspector
would ask if there was no station of ingress shown and may well ask
for an address if he thinks fare evasion has taken place.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? *None of them could prove it.

There is no need to arrest everyone in the world, and I don't quite
see how my logic and the logic of the conditions of carriage could be
stretched to being a demand to arrest everyone in the world.
What the Cs-of-C ask for is that everyone with an Oyster has to touch
in where there are validators. It is in the section under 'Season
tickets'.

Actually, they don't, they say to touch in at the start and the end of
the JOURNEY, if you have a season on Oyster. They don't say to do so
at any validator that you pass. There are many routes into the system
where someone with a travelcard season won't be able to touch in at
the start of their journey, for example all the stations south of the
river with no Oyster validators or barriers. This means that there is
a logical flaw in the CoC, saying that you have to do something that
is impossible to do on many rail services at the moment.

That way, our hypothetical man who travels from Finchley Central every
day with a zones 1 & 2 weekly, but who says he has travelled from
Prince Regent, can have his penalty fare.

I know that you will reply again saying that the Conditions of
Carriage are nonsensical and that everyone is happy, but those are
things for you to take up with Tfl's legal department. All I have done
is point out the relevant section and given at least one good reason
why that section would be there.

On Mar 8, 11:55 pm, Andy wrote:
On Mar 8, 7:58 pm, Offramp wrote:

"Actually, they don't, they say to touch in at the start and the end
of the JOURNEY, if you have a season on Oyster."

Exactly right. Thanks very much.

["Followup-To:" header set to uk.transport.london.]
In article ,
Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Your argument is based on the premise that any breach of the Cs-O-C
makes you a fare evader. If I smoke on a train, then I breach
the conditions (and am an antisocial git) but I have not evaded the
fare.

Interestingly, Section 10 of the conditions [1] makes
it clear when TfL thinks that fare evasion has taken place - and
it very explicitly does NOT include someone with a valid season and
no record of touching in. It says:

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--

10. Suspected fare evasion and prosecutions
10.1. If you are travelling on any of our services without either:

a ticket that is valid and available for the journey you are
making

an Oyster card containing a valid season ticket

an Oyster card, when you are paying as you go, showing a record
of the start of your trip

or

a valid 11-15 Oyster photocard if you are aged 14 or 15 and are
travelling free on a bus

a valid 16+ Oyster photocard if you are aged 16 or 17 (and if
eligible 18 or 19) and are travelling free on a bus

and we believe that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare,
you may be prosecuted. If the court finds you guilty it can fine
you up to GBP1000 (or send you to prison for up to three months,
if you were travelling on London Underground).

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--


[1] via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

On 10 Mar, 07:27, Mike Bristow wrote:
Interestingly, Section 10 of the conditions [1] makes
it clear when TfL thinks that fare evasion has taken place - and
it very explicitly does NOT include someone with a valid season and
no record of touching in.
snip

....and we have a winner ;-)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mar 10, 7:27 am, Mike Bristow wrote:
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.transport.london.]
In article ,
Offramp wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Your argument is based on the premise that any breach of the Cs-O-C
makes you a fare evader. If I smoke on a train, then I breach
the conditions (and am an antisocial git) but I have not evaded the
fare.

Interestingly, Section 10 of the conditions [1] makes
it clear when TfL thinks that fare evasion has taken place - and
it very explicitly does NOT include someone with a valid season and
no record of touching in. It says:

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--

10. Suspected fare evasion and prosecutions
10.1. If you are travelling on any of our services without either:

a ticket that is valid and available for the journey you are
making

an Oyster card containing a valid season ticket

an Oyster card, when you are paying as you go, showing a record
of the start of your trip

or

a valid 11-15 Oyster photocard if you are aged 14 or 15 and are
travelling free on a bus

a valid 16+ Oyster photocard if you are aged 16 or 17 (and if
eligible 18 or 19) and are travelling free on a bus

and we believe that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare,
you may be prosecuted. If the court finds you guilty it can fine
you up to GBP1000 (or send you to prison for up to three months,
if you were travelling on London Underground).

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--

[1] viahttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

A fascinating link!

There is an interesting section in that same document that you quoted
- you have to scroll up:

"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader."

The DLR version is he
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
and says
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

I can't really express it more clearly than that.

On Mar 10, 9:48*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 10, 7:27 am, Mike Bristow wrote:





["Followup-To:" header set to uk.transport.london.]
In article ,
* * * * Offramp wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Your argument is based on the premise that any breach of the Cs-O-C
makes you a fare evader. *If I smoke on a train, then I breach
the conditions (and am an antisocial git) but I have not evaded the
fare.

Interestingly, Section 10 of the conditions [1] makes
it clear when TfL thinks that fare evasion has taken place - and
it very explicitly does NOT include someone with a valid season and
no record of touching in. *It says:

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--

10. Suspected fare evasion and prosecutions
10.1. If you are travelling on any of our services without either:

* a ticket that is valid and available for the journey you are
* making

* an Oyster card containing a valid season ticket

* an Oyster card, when you are paying as you go, showing a record
* of the start of your trip

or

* a valid 11-15 Oyster photocard if you are aged 14 or 15 and are
* travelling free on a bus

* a valid 16+ Oyster photocard if you are aged 16 or 17 (and if
* eligible 18 or 19) and are travelling free on a bus

and we believe that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare,
you may be prosecuted. If the court finds you guilty it can fine
you up to GBP1000 (or send you to prison for up to three months,
if you were travelling on London Underground).

--8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8--

[1] viahttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...

--
Shenanigans! *Shenanigans! * *Best of 3!
* * * * -- Flash

A fascinating link!

There is an interesting section in that same document that you quoted
- you have to scroll up:

"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader."

The DLR version is hehttp://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
and says
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

I can't really express it more clearly than that.

Still waiting for you to justify your accusations of fare-evasion or
to come up with an example of how anyone with a travelcard valid for
their DLR journey can avoid a fare by not touching in.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Offramp
wrote:

"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader."

While they might have a job prosecuting for that, they could certainly
impose a civil penalty (e.g. a standard fare), just as the operator of
a car park could impose one on someone who had paid for their parking
but omitted to display the ticket.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Much earlier, I wrote:
"First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket."

On Mar 11, 4:08*am, Offramp wrote:
Much earlier, I wrote:

"First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket."

Is this roundabout admission that you made a false accusation of fare-
evasion against me and anyone else who has traveled on the DLR with a
valid travelcard without touching in?

Or do you personally still think it's fare-evasion, because of your
obsession with some unworkable ToCs?

On Mar 11, 7:17*am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:08*am, Offramp wrote:

Much earlier, I wrote:

"First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket."

Is this roundabout admission that you made a false accusation of fare-
evasion against me and anyone else who has traveled on the DLR with a
valid travelcard without touching in?

Or do you personally still think it's fare-evasion, because of your
obsession with some unworkable ToCs?

CoCs or CsoC. Strange slip.