solar penguin wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:

The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all
non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons
within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010.

I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently
though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd
be little point in not making them valid zonally.

That's depressing news. Thanks for the warning.

Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will
there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc.
validity that we don't need.

As I've just posted elsewhere in the thread, the new prices appear to have
been loaded, so it ought to be possible to use the National Rail enquires
season ticket calculator to test what the new prices are, and compare with
your existing season?

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/sts

Paul S

John B wrote:

On Dec 7, 9:37 am, "solar penguin"
wrote:

If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious
blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might
even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for
Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU.

Almost certainly the plan - and for my money it can't come a moment
too soon. The straightforward, convenient LU way of doing it is far
more sensible than the arcane, point-to-point NR way of doing it.

I'm curious. Why do you think zonal fares are "straightforward,
convenient" and "sensible"?

IMHO they're an ungainly compromise between a proper flat-fare system
and a proper route based system, either of which in themselves could be
"straightforward, convenient" and "sensible". But like all such
compromises, the zonal system manages to combine the worst aspects of
both and the best of neither.

Here's a simple example. Go one stop northbound from Kennington on
either of the branches of the Northern line. Common sense says that
these similar journeys ought to cost the same. Instead one costs much
more than the other because it just happens to take you across a random,
imaginary line on a map, while the other doesn't!

Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're
forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport,
etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it
becomes even less sensible. (Well, I suppose that might be sensible,
convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many
different modes of transport. But for the rest of us, it just plain
isn't.)

On 7 Dec, 19:48, "solar penguin" wrote:
Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will
there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity
that we don't need. *

Neither - It'll be the same as we already have for singles/returns in
the zones - same tickets, same point-to-point validities, but uniform
pricing based on the zones passed through. So a Gipsy Hill-Croydon
season will cost the same Z3-5 rate as a Barnes-Twickenham season.
This will be less than the Travelcard rate, but I can't find 2010
pricing anywhere.

In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a
Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has
and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon and, so
there's very little reason for them not to switch to one.

U

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:37:44 -0000, "solar penguin"
wrote:

I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to
work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm
sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts
which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking.

You'll have to explain your thinking here. If there is a zonal, ride
at will, multi modal ticket available I would always purchase it.

Really? Why? I wouldn't unless it that ticket just happened to be the
best option for my specific journey.

My thinking is that if there's a simple, no-frills product that gives
exactly what I want, then I'm the sort of person who will always prefer
that instead of fancy, all-singing, all-dancing products whose extra
features I'll probably never use enough to justify getting them.

In short, I just hate buying stuff that I'm got going to use fully. It
feels wrong and wasteful

And there's nothing special or magical about train tickets that makes
them an exception to this rule.

It
just gives so much more choice over travel options with little need
to be concerned about where you are going once you've worked out the
zones you want. Still I've buying zonally based tickets (all over the
world) for about 30 years or so so I suppose I'm used to them.

I don't think I'll ever get used to them.

In fact, I'd actually prefer the option of being able to choose to buy
special cheap-rate tickets that give even less choice than at present,
for those times when they're the best option for my journey.

Take for example, a return ticket between Gipsy Hill and "London
Terminals". At the moment tickets are valid to and from any of
half-a-dozen terminals, by almost any possible route. But if I know in
advance I'm going to London Bridge and returning from there, it would be
great to get a London Bridge only ticket, which cheaper because I don't
have to pay for the availability at Victoria, Waterloo, etc.


I would also caution that you are mixing ticket products with ticket
media. Oyster is simply the Smartcard which in turn is just a very
clever, higher capacity magnetic ticket.

Travelcards existed a long time before Oyster was even conceived.

True, but before it was always possible to ignore them in favour of
better options. They were just a useless irrelevance, with the obvious
exception of the One Day Travelcard of course, which is useful on those
rare special occasions when I do need to make complex journeys.

The fact that Travelcards are the _only_ form of season on Oyster means
that the other, potentially better types of season are becoming ignored,
neglected, etc. by the powers that be.

The
idea of Pay as you Go (or Stored Value) was also conceived in the days
of magnetic ticketing. Hong Kong and Singapore started off on
magnetically based SVT systems. I can sort of conceive why someone
may be dubious about SVT replacing a "ride at will" ticket but I
struggle with why anyone would be bothered by having a Travelcard in
place of a point to point season.

I'm bothered because when I'm normally only travelling between Gipsy
Hill and West Croydon then I only need a ticket between a ticket between
Gipsy Hill and West Croydon, and no more. I don't see why I should be
forced into paying extra for a ticket that's also valid between on the
tube Hampstead and Edgware, or the DLR between Canning Town and
Woolwich, or etc. etc. on occasions when I don't need any of that.

(Actually that's a poor example because there's not a simple Gipsy Hill
to West Croydon ticket. You have to get one to "Croydon Stations",
which is stupid because the connection at Norwood Junction is so poor
that anyone travelling to somewehere in the East Croydon area will
usually be quicker going to West Croydon and walking!)

OTOH on those isolated occasions when I actually need to make to make a
more complicated journey, then I'll happily buy a more complicated
ticket like a One Day Travelcard, or whatever the most appropriate
ticket for that specific journey is.

on LUL travelcard effectively
replaced a myriad of point to point season options back in the 1980s
- I don't recall there being massive disagreement with that concept.

Maybe there should've been. It would've helped avoid the current mess.


If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious
blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might
even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for
Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU.

Oyster has been accepted on NR for season ticket purposes
(Travelcards) for years and has not written anything off in terms of
point to point seasons. For as long as point to points are largely
TOC specific products then they'll survive because the TOCs want the
money in their bank accounts and not going through some shared pot
like Travelcard.


Let's hope so.


OTOH If someone could produce a sort of point-to-point equivalent of
Oyster, I'd probably welcome it with open arms. (Hmmm... Isn't that
more or less what SWT were trying to do before those *******s at TfL
stopped them and forced them to use Oyster instead?)

I cannot for the life of me see why point to point seasons could not
be placed on the Oyster ticket medium.

Again, let's hope so.

I know much less about ITSO but
haven't SWT been trialling ITSO based point to point seasons?

That's probably what I was thinking of above.

I would
have thought it would be a pre-requisite of ITSO adoption that the
basic product range offered by all TOCs could be supported via ITSO
"products" that can be loaded to ITSO compliant cards via ITSO
compatible retailing / validation equipment.

Mr Thant wrote:


In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a
Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has

Thanks. I didn't know that. You mean they've been charging me for
journeys all the way to Sutton even when I've only been going as far as
West Croydon! The sneaky *******s!

and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon
and, so there's very little reason for them not to switch to one.


Might also be valid via Balham/Mitcham as well. If so, I'd probably use
that enough to justify getting one.

Silly question, would it still open the barriers at West Croydon?

On Dec 7, 8:10*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're
forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport,
etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it
becomes even less sensible. *(Well, I suppose that might be sensible,
convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many
different modes of transport. *But for the rest of us, it just plain
isn't.)

But who doesn't? I mean, who doesn't go out at weekends or evenings,
who doesn't vary their route to work based on whether there are delays
and if so on what mode, whether it's raining and how tired you are
(for nearer-to-home-but-less-convenient-journey versus longer-walk-
direct-journey versus bus), on whether they're in their normal office
or a site somewhere, on whether they've stayed the night at home or at
a friend's or partner's place, on a million other factors...?

Across London (and this is true even in Tube-less SE London), there
are a huge number of alternative transport modes, be they bus, train
or Tube, that you'll certainly want to use when things go a bit wrong,
which is fairly often, and that you'll often want to use even when
they don't.

If LU sold point-to-point seasons and I'd bought one when I last
renewed, I'd've had to get it refunded twice - once for a move of
house and once for a move of my company's offices, both of which were
forced on me by external factors rather than my whim. And that's even
before any of the circumstances mentioned above.

(as it happens, one possible route to work for me from my current home
to my current work - and the one I'd expected when moving to take most
often - would be covered by a slightly-cheaper-than-Travelcard NR
point-to-point season. If I'd decided to go with that, then I'd be
utterly shafted at the moment thanks to the superb work of FCC and its
drivers. And I'd have to pay a quid every time I went for the bus to
the station instead of a 15-minute walk).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 03:34:17 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:

behind Oyster.

Haha.

The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no
reason to have a paper season ticket

Yes there is - validity to/from an NR station outside the zones.

and paper season tickets aren't sold.

Yes they are - see above.

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:00:10 -0000, solar penguin wrote:

In fact, I'd actually prefer the option of being able to choose to buy
special cheap-rate tickets that give even less choice than at present,
for those times when they're the best option for my journey.

Take for example, a return ticket between Gipsy Hill and "London
Terminals". At the moment tickets are valid to and from any of
half-a-dozen terminals, by almost any possible route. But if I know in
advance I'm going to London Bridge and returning from there, it would be
great to get a London Bridge only ticket, which cheaper because I don't
have to pay for the availability at Victoria, Waterloo, etc.

What makes you think it would be cheaper?

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:14:48 -0000, solar penguin wrote:

In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a
Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has

Thanks. I didn't know that. You mean they've been charging me for
journeys all the way to Sutton even when I've only been going as far as
West Croydon! The sneaky *******s!

Guess what, those sneaky *******s have also been charging you for 50
return journeys a day* when you've only been making 1.

* Or however many is physically possible in the current timetable.

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:10:39 -0000, solar penguin wrote:

I'm curious. Why do you think zonal fares are "straightforward,
convenient" and "sensible"?

IMHO they're an ungainly compromise between a proper flat-fare system
and a proper route based system, either of which in themselves could be
"straightforward, convenient" and "sensible". But like all such
compromises, the zonal system manages to combine the worst aspects of
both and the best of neither.

Here's a simple example. Go one stop northbound from Kennington on
either of the branches of the Northern line. Common sense says that
these similar journeys ought to cost the same. Instead one costs much
more than the other because it just happens to take you across a random,
imaginary line on a map, while the other doesn't!

The line is not random - zone 1 represents the central business area
of London. Which is a real, physical thing and not imaginary.

Even a point-to-point mileage-based system would take reality into
account and charge higher rates per mile for travel in/into the cental
area. So the Waterloo journey would still cost more.