On 23 Jan, 13:33, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 12:32*pm, Andy wrote:





On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote
I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

Both types of One Day Travelcards are protected and not everyone will
have an Oystercard. From the ToCs point of view, it would be silly to
remove them, as there is always the chance of people not using the
full 'value', especially with the peak tickets.

Agreed. The point about the peak/ Anytime tickets is interesting, and
raises a few thoughts...

One of the useful things about Oyster PAYG is being able to make a
morning peak journey (one that starts before 09:30), then make several
off-peak journeys and benefit from paying the *off-peak cap* plus the
*single peak fare* if that's cheaper than the peak cap (which is now
exactly the same as the cost of the Anytime Day Travelcard).

One thing I have realised is that if one was to make a peak-time
journey into a central London terminus on NR - say to Victoria - and
then transfer on to LU, then because of the out-of-station interchange
(OSI) at Victoria the whole thing is counted as one through journey,
and UIVMM one would be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare, even if
the LU part of the journey all happened after 09:30.

Looking at the fares tables (via London Reconnections [1]), it seems
this does leave open the opportunity for people to be charged more
than they think they might be w.r.t. single fares. Also, the fact that
the journey 'continues' at Victoria might possibly have repercussions
if someone had thought they could just pay for a peak NR fare, with
all their other journeys falling under the off-peak cap umbrella.

OK, this is one possible scenario - Bob makes a peak NR journey from
Nunhead (z2) to Victoria (z1) - on it's own this costs £2.10. However
Bob then heads onto the Underground to go to Heathrow (he's with his
wife who's flying off on business) - when he enters the Tube station
the time is *past* 09:30. When he gets to Heathrow I think he'd then
be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare from z1 to z6 of £6 - if so,
then this would be more expensive than the peak NR z1&2 fare of £2.10
plus the off-peak LU z1-6 fare of £2.40.

If Bob then thought he could gallivant all around the whole of London
(e.g. visiting friends in Epping *and Purley!) and just pay the off-
peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 plus the peak NR fare of £2.10 (i.e. £6.60
total), he might be in for a surprise, as I think he could end up
paying for the £6 peak through NR+LU fare, plus the off-peak z1-6 cap
of £7.50 (if he'd made enough journeys in the relevant zones of
course).

If I've got all that right, then Bob's mistake would be to presume
that the Nunhead to Victoria NR journey would be treated separately
from the Victoria to Heathrow LU journey (and thus he should have
ignored his wife and travelled up on the 09:43 train from Nunhead, not
the 09:13, because they got to Heathrow airport four hours before the
flight anyway!).

I suppose I might have got that wrong - but AFAICS given the OSI at
Victoria, once on had entered the LU network then the journey would
surely be regarded as a continuation of the original journey from
Nunhead instead of being two separate journeys. (AIUI, Oyster cannot
retrospectively split a previously combined journey into two separate
journeys if that would work out cheaper for the punter.)

I suppose that in the real world, this isn't something that most
people would encounter. It would of course make life easier if there
was but one pan-London fare scale that applied to both NR and LU, but
alas that would be hard to achieve given the current set up of the
TOCs.

Bob has to get an off-peak zone 1-6 travelcard at Victoria, as long
as they remain available. Sortid.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:34:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some
precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in
January

A significant difference, however, is that there is an Oyster bus/tram
price cap of £3.95, with AFAIK no equivalent of the out-of-boundary
tickets valid on buses. So there is no real requirement to have paper
and Oyster bus-only passes co-existing because they serve exactly the
same purpose.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

At extraordinarily widely varying prices. I've been having a
(non-)correspondence with FCC. I asked them to explain why, when a
Cambridge to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is £20 (or £13.20 with
railcard) and the Oxford to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is also
£20 (or £13.20 with railcard), the Cambridge Day Travelcard is £26.50
(£17.50 with railcard, a £4.30 addon) while the Oxford one is only £2
(with railcard discount) more than the London Terminals fare.

All I got back from First was this waffle:

"I have passed your thoughts to our fares Manager, who has replied saying
that the Travelcard fare within the Travelcard Area (Zones 1-6) are set by
Transport for London in conjunction with all the Train Operators that
operate services within the Travelcard Area."

Obviously ********.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
lid (Ivor The Engine) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:34:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some
precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in
January

A significant difference, however, is that there is an Oyster bus/tram
price cap of £3.95, with AFAIK no equivalent of the out-of-boundary
tickets valid on buses. So there is no real requirement to have paper
and Oyster bus-only passes co-existing because they serve exactly the
same purpose.

I thought the paper bus day ticket had been abolished?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jan 23, 2:20*pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

At extraordinarily widely varying prices. I've been having a
(non-)correspondence with FCC. I asked them to explain why, when a
Cambridge to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is £20 (or £13.20 with
railcard) and the Oxford to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is also
£20 (or £13.20 with railcard), the Cambridge Day Travelcard is £26.50
(£17.50 with railcard, a £4.30 addon) while the Oxford one is only £2
(with railcard discount) more than the London Terminals fare.

All I got back from First was this waffle:

"I have passed your thoughts to our fares Manager, who has replied saying
that the Travelcard fare within the Travelcard Area (Zones 1-6) are set by
Transport for London in conjunction with all the Train Operators that
operate services within the Travelcard Area."

Obviously ********.

What the letter failed to go on and say was that 'out-boundary
Travelcard fares are set by TOCs on the basis of a commercial decision
as to how much they can get away with charging (versus their desire to
attract traffic)'. Of course there will be a certain amount of money
from each out-boundary Travelcard that has to go into the Travelcard
pot, for sharing out, but that only accounts for some of it.

Re your examples - FGW probably price the Oxford fares in the context
of the competing coach services to London, a factor that doesn't exist
at Cambridge (NXEA arguably provide a bit of 'competition', but most
pax go the fast way via KX and FCC).

On Jan 23, 2:03*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 13:33, Mizter T wrote:
[snip]
One of the useful things about Oyster PAYG is being able to make a
morning peak journey (one that starts before 09:30), then make several
off-peak journeys and benefit from paying the *off-peak cap* plus the
*single peak fare* if that's cheaper than the peak cap (which is now
exactly the same as the cost of the Anytime Day Travelcard).

One thing I have realised is that if one was to make a peak-time
journey into a central London terminus on NR - say to Victoria - and
then transfer on to LU, then because of the out-of-station interchange
(OSI) at Victoria the whole thing is counted as one through journey,
and UIVMM one would be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare, even if
the LU part of the journey all happened after 09:30.

Looking at the fares tables (via London Reconnections [1]), it seems
this does leave open the opportunity for people to be charged more
than they think they might be w.r.t. single fares. Also, the fact that
the journey 'continues' at Victoria might possibly have repercussions
if someone had thought they could just pay for a peak NR fare, with
all their other journeys falling under the off-peak cap umbrella.

OK, this is one possible scenario - Bob makes a peak NR journey from
Nunhead (z2) to Victoria (z1) - on it's own this costs £2.10. However
Bob then heads onto the Underground to go to Heathrow (he's with his
wife who's flying off on business) - when he enters the Tube station
the time is *past* 09:30. When he gets to Heathrow I think he'd then
be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare from z1 to z6 of £6 - if so,
then this would be more expensive than the peak NR z1&2 fare of £2.10
plus the off-peak LU z1-6 fare of £2.40.

If Bob then thought he could gallivant all around the whole of London
(e.g. visiting friends in Epping *and Purley!) and just pay the off-
peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 plus the peak NR fare of £2.10 (i.e. £6.60
total), he might be in for a surprise, as I think he could end up
paying for the £6 peak through NR+LU fare, plus the off-peak z1-6 cap
of £7.50 (if he'd made enough journeys in the relevant zones of
course).

If I've got all that right, then Bob's mistake would be to presume
that the Nunhead to Victoria NR journey would be treated separately
from the Victoria to Heathrow LU journey (and thus he should have
ignored his wife and travelled up on the 09:43 train from Nunhead, not
the 09:13, because they got to Heathrow airport four hours before the
flight anyway!).

I suppose I might have got that wrong - but AFAICS given the OSI at
Victoria, once on had entered the LU network then the journey would
surely be regarded as a continuation of the original journey from
Nunhead instead of being two separate journeys. (AIUI, Oyster cannot
retrospectively split a previously combined journey into two separate
journeys if that would work out cheaper for the punter.)

I suppose that in the real world, this isn't something that most
people would encounter. It would of course make life easier if there
was but one pan-London fare scale that applied to both NR and LU, but
alas that would be hard to achieve given the current set up of the
TOCs.

Bob has to get an off-peak zone 1-6 *travelcard at Victoria, as long
as they remain available. *Sortid.

Or Bob could use two Oyster cards (and then inevitably get confused as
to which is which!).

In a sense this issue is not really any different to that which
existed pre-Oyster, where if Bob wanted to save a few, er, bob, he
would have bought a single from Nunhead to Victoria, then an off-peak
z1-6 Day Travelcard at Victoria, instead of buying an expensive z1-6
Peak Day Travelcard at Nunhead. (Of course Peak Day Travelcards, now
known as Anytime Day Travelcards, are in and of themselves a
relatively recent innovation anyway - though IIRC they do pre-date
Oyster).

Also, I should stress that in the post above I was putting forward a
hypothesis, I can't confirm that it's right. (At least not until I
find an opportunity to waste time and money trying it out myself!)

On Jan 23, 2:03*pm, Ivor The Engine
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:34:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some
precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in
January

A significant difference, however, is that there is an Oyster bus/tram
price cap of £3.95, with AFAIK no equivalent of the out-of-boundary
tickets valid on buses. *So there is no real requirement to have paper
and Oyster bus-only passes co-existing because they serve exactly the
same purpose.

True - though the cap is £3.90, not £3.95 (regardless, something of an
increase over last year's £3.30, but that's another discussion!).

On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're
making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly
go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change
at East Croydon.


People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go
all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their
PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they
may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will
have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that
they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they
want to take advantage of the Oyster fares.

"They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there -
there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary
Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for
some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus
Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account
in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a
ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but
nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a
regular basis.

On 23 Jan, 17:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're
making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly
go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change
at East Croydon.

Eh? You'd get a day return including travelcard. The travelcard
validity starts at Coulsdon South. An extension from the zones (if
you start in London) is similarly from Coulsdon South.

If you actually wanted to go there, you could do it by changing at
Gatwick and Redhill or by doubling back. I don't know how that
affects the available fares. If you had an outboundary travelcard or
were extending a season, it wouldn't matter where the trains stopped.


People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go
all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their
PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they
may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will
have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that
they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they
want to take advantage of the Oyster fares.

"They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there -
there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary
Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for
some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus
Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account
in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a
ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but
nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a
regular basis.

The discussion was mainly about day return outboundary travelcards,
which it was accepted that they sell lots of. So my person is the one
who does a day trip from Brighton to London and travels around a lot
in London.

If the travelcards weren't retained, you'd have to go to London
Terminals before you could realistically start running up your PAYG
cap, hence wondering about the difference in day return Brighton to
Coulsdon South and the day return Brighton to London terminals. That
would be the extra bit you'd be paying that wouldn't count towards the
cap.

I am quite prepared to believe that the travelcards will be retained,
but I'm saying that the reasons for retaining them will be down to
legislation, not down to consideration of the people in Sussex who
either don't have Oyster cards or wouldn't get the chance to touch in.

Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:59 pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:05 pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".
My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.
Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.
True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're
making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly
go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change
at East Croydon.

Brighton-Coulsdon S is priced as via East Croydon, which is why
an SDS Brighton-East Croydon is cheaper than an SDS Brighton-Coulsdon S,
with no "Direct" version of ticket available until you get
as far north as Burgess Hill.

/john