On 13/12/2012 01:18, wrote:
[...]
I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the
contactless feature, however.

Some banks are ahead of others - for example, Barclays was one of the
first to issue contactless cards widely (both Barclaycard credit cards
and also Barclays Bank debit cards), and Lloyds are now I think quite
big on them.

On 13/12/2012 14:31, CJB wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:26 pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message

...

Mizter T wrote:

I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually
become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the
contactless card payment method into the mainstream.

(And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!)

I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now,
while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader.

But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for
non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the
infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them.

Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant?

You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus.

You still need to download the data each day to some central collation
point.

You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus
companies offer discount returns.

You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads.

And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its
destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying
twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets
them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by
this the most. CJB.


No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its
run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket.

That's how they do it in London, at least.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 13/12/2012 13:18, tim..... wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 12/12/2012 22:37, tim..... wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and
voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no
capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL
modes (Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR.

So

With only XX percentage of customers having a "contactless" bank card (I
don't have one, and I have 3 bank cards in my wallet).

Only usable on the bus

and no capping even to the one day buss pass.

I predict a complete failure of this experiment

tim


I thought that banks were starting to redistribute cards with the
contactless feature, however.

ITYF that they started this about 2 years ago

I still don't have one (not by choice)

tim



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---




Call your bank and ask for one. I did, and they were more than happy to
issue me one.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:43:45 +0000, Mizter T
wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and
voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no
capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes
(Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR.

I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to
how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out
fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should
add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may
be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need
to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless
transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport /
transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather
different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.)



Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

In message , at 07:44:36 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, David remarked:

Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?

I think they may store something, in order to trigger the "time to ask
for a PIN" routine (for regular transactions).

Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

Do they attempt to read it?

One possible mode would be for the inspector to download a "recent
charges" history from the *bus* when he gets on, and checks the numbers
in question against any paywave cards he's offered.
--
Roland Perry

On 14/12/2012 10:57, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 07:44:36 +0000, David wrote:

Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic
txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader.


My understanding is that while 'banking information' is written back to
the card by the reader (transaction counts, cumulative transaction value
since last online PIN confirmation, etc), there is nothing on the card
that is 'transport application' related. So no capping can be done (for
example) on the card.

Future systems may take the transaction record from the bus's ticket
machine(ETM) or the Underground's gates, and then process them in the
back office to determine the total amount to charge. So the 'taps' of
the card on the ETM and gate are really just "I am here" events. It may
be that the transaction with the card is only for a nominal amount - one
of Visa / MasterCard allows a zero-value transaction, but I can't
remember which. There is a completely different transaction model for
transit / tranport use compared with 'normal' retail.

There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which
will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport
application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea
how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area.

Hope that helps

Kevin

In message , at 10:57:09 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic
txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader.

VISA say "Only minimal account and information is stored on a Visa
payWave card, which is no more than traditional magnetic stripe cards or
contact chip cards".

On the other hand, a Smartcard newsletter says: "Retailers will be able
to use data stored inside Visa payWave payment card to deliver targeted
messages at the point of sale. For example, a coffee chain can recognize
an infrequent customer that has not been to the chain in over 30 days,
and instantly print an offer at the bottom of the card receipt,
encouraging the customer to return soon."

Which implies that an almost unlimited amount of historic transaction
information is sent with every wave. Which doesn't seem very practical
(and how/when is the data for the latest transaction added to the card,
that implies a 2-way data flow).

I can't see any indication in a 200+ page technical spec I have for
payWave that anything is written back to the card, and the flow chart
for processing an EMV card suggests that the card can be removed from
the RF field before the terminal has done any of its authentication
activity - so at that stage it's unknown whether the transaction
succeeded or not.

There is, however, a "Transaction counter" on the card, although
updating it is optional.

I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if
we can nail this down at all.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:18:02 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Kevin Ayton remarked:

There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which
will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport
application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea
how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area.

The "Transport Application" would presumably be owned by the transport
authority (or possibly a clearing house) and only the owner would have
access.

So there might perhaps be a "TfL Transport Application" and later a
"Stagecoach Transport Application", or possibly a less useful "SWT
Trains Transport Application", or a more useful "ATOC Transport
Application".

What I'm not familiar with (and similarly for ITSO) is how many such
applications might be able to co-exist on one card.
--
Roland Perry

On Dec 13, 11:07*pm, "
wrote:
On 13/12/2012 14:31, CJB wrote:









On Dec 13, 1:26 pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message

...

Mizter T wrote:

I (genuinely) totally disagree with you - I think this will eventually
become one of the so-called 'killer applications' that pushes the
contactless card payment method into the mainstream.

(And FWIW, I haven't got a contactless card in my wallet either!)

I have two, and it means I have to get my Oyster out of my wallet now,
while I used to be able to just bang the whole wallet on the reader.

But yes, I agree, this will become a "killer app" - particularly for
non-London bus companies who don't wish to spend a fortune on the
infrastructure to do a PAYG smartcard when the banks can do it for them.

Is the bit that you are saving going to be significant?

You're still going to have to have a reader in every bus.

You still need to download the data each day to some central collation
point.

You need to provide some sort of intelligent ticketing - most rural bus
companies offer discount returns.

You'll need a "complaints" department to handle mis-reads.

And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its
destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying
twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets
them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by
this the most. *CJB.

No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its
run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket.

That's how they do it in London, at least.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

That is not how they do it London. This is SUPPOSED to be the way, but
most times the drivers simply can't be bothered - they just put a pre-
recorded announcement on about a change of destination, flick the
lights on and off when they get there, and tell everyone to get off
and catch the next bus behind, So only knowing commuters ask for a
ticket, or simply talk their way into getting onto the next bus for
free. Everyone else incl. hapless tourists touch-in again and occur an
extra fare. As I said this scam rakes in millions of extra revenue for
TfL - all due to the laziness or indifference of the drivers. CJB

In message
, at
05:20:59 on Fri, 14 Dec 2012, CJB remarked:
And if the bus service is curtailed - that is cut short of its
destination - then when you board the bus behind you end up paying
twice. That's a scam that TfL have been running for years. It nets
them millions of pounds extra profit. Tourists are usually affected by
this the most. *CJB.

No, if they have to change the bus' destination, thus curtailing its
run, then you can simply ask the driver for a continuation ticket.

That's how they do it in London, at least.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

That is not how they do it London. This is SUPPOSED to be the way, but
most times the drivers simply can't be bothered - they just put a pre-
recorded announcement on about a change of destination, flick the
lights on and off when they get there, and tell everyone to get off
and catch the next bus behind, So only knowing commuters ask for a
ticket, or simply talk their way into getting onto the next bus for
free.

Wouldn't commuters have a season ticket anyway?

Everyone else incl. hapless tourists touch-in again and occur an
extra fare.

Yes, they are ones who suffer, domestic 'tourists' as well as foreign
ones.
--
Roland Perry