On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:30:38 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
If all fares originating in the UK go up, then competitively it's still
a level playing field for the airlines, but the passengers all pay more.

Air fares going up can only be a good thing. There are far too many aircraft
in the skies already mostly flying people on pointless trips. Only a small
minority are actually for business. The amount of pollution from aircraft,
both noise and CO2 is horrendous.

--
Spud

In message , at 11:41:08 on Wed, 15 Jun
2016, d remarked:

If all fares originating in the UK go up, then competitively it's still
a level playing field for the airlines, but the passengers all pay more.

Air fares going up can only be a good thing. There are far too many aircraft
in the skies already mostly flying people on pointless trips. Only a small
minority are actually for business.

It's a minority at Heathrow (36%) but that small of one.

The amount of pollution from aircraft, both noise and CO2 is
horrendous.

Nanny knows best, eh?
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:24:11 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:41:08 on Wed, 15 Jun
2016, d remarked:

If all fares originating in the UK go up, then competitively it's still
a level playing field for the airlines, but the passengers all pay more.

Air fares going up can only be a good thing. There are far too many aircraft
in the skies already mostly flying people on pointless trips. Only a small
minority are actually for business.

It's a minority at Heathrow (36%) but that small of one.

The amount of pollution from aircraft, both noise and CO2 is
horrendous.

Nanny knows best, eh?

Oh, you don't think its a problem then?

--
Spud

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 18:49:14 on Tue, 14 Jun 2016,
tim... remarked:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will CIV
survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across a UK
border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

Plus the UK to StPancras leg, which is often substantially cheaper if
you buy the CIV ticket, especially in the peaks.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't
remember what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU deregulation,
and the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

But business models need a regulatory framework within which they exist.
Scrap the framework and there could be trouble ahead.

That framework doesn't rely upon the EU

It relies entirely on the liberation contained in the so-called "Aviation
Packages" - collections of Directives and regulations commencing in 1983.
Google SN00182.pdf for more details.

if it did "Norwegian" couldn't compete (to name but one)

The UK would need whatever deal they've negotiated to fly intra-EU.

There must be standard rules for this otherwise all the other countries
airlines couldn't fly to the EU.

Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they aren't
the difference between them existing, or not

They are at places like Heathrow (and UK to other very busy EU hubs).

I know slots are in demand at LHR, it's why the cheepies don't fly from
there

The "Open Skies" agreement between the EU and USA is what governs the
allocation of slots at Heathrow, and hence the price of transatlantic
fares.

I know all about that thanks very much.

what relevance is it to European flights?

That's for all flights, not just the low cost ones.

the last 20 years has shown us that the majors have to compete on fare
with the cheepies even if they do fly from the more convenient/popular
airport

20 years of trying to persuade us to continue to pay the premium price
failed

If all fares originating in the UK go up, then competitively it's still a
level playing field for the airlines, but the passengers all pay more.

why would all fares originating in the UK go up?

If none of the costs of say: flying from Luton to Ciampino change, why would
Ryanair put up the fare for doing so?

neither Luton nor Ciampino are short of slots so they are not going to do
anything to discourage the service from operating. Who else is going to put
their oar in?

tim

In message , at 14:15:37 on Wed, 15 Jun
2016, d remarked:
The amount of pollution from aircraft, both noise and CO2 is
horrendous.

Nanny knows best, eh?

Oh, you don't think its a problem then?

You want the state telling you where and when you can travel?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:33:05 on Wed, 15 Jun
2016, tim... remarked:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will
CIV survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across
a UK border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

Plus the UK to StPancras leg, which is often substantially cheaper
if you buy the CIV ticket, especially in the peaks.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't
remember what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU
deregulation, and the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

But business models need a regulatory framework within which they
exist. Scrap the framework and there could be trouble ahead.

That framework doesn't rely upon the EU

It relies entirely on the liberation contained in the so-called
"Aviation Packages" - collections of Directives and regulations
commencing in 1983. Google SN00182.pdf for more details.

if it did "Norwegian" couldn't compete (to name but one)

The UK would need whatever deal they've negotiated to fly intra-EU.

There must be standard rules for this otherwise all the other countries
airlines couldn't fly to the EU.

And those standard rules won't be at the same cost as for EU members.

Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they
aren't the difference between them existing, or not

They are at places like Heathrow (and UK to other very busy EU hubs).

I know slots are in demand at LHR, it's why the cheepies don't fly
from there

The "Open Skies" agreement between the EU and USA is what governs the
allocation of slots at Heathrow, and hence the price of transatlantic
fares.

I know all about that thanks very much.

what relevance is it to European flights?

None at all. Sorry to have confused you by trying to discuss two related
issues in the same posting.

--
Roland Perry

On 14/06/2016 10:54, Recliner wrote:
[...]
All boroughs have TfL railways to Central London except

* Sutton, which has trams
* Kingston, which has nothing
* Bexley, which is getting Crossrail at Abbey Wood soon-

So the Royal Borough benefits very little from the council taxes and
business rates it contributes to the GLA. A bit like the UK in the EU
really. :-)-

More Brexit lies I see. The UK benefits about 10 times what it pays in
to the EU. Or weren't you listening to Radio 4 at noon today?

I didn't hear that programme, but I wish I had because I find
it totally incredible that we "benefit" 10 times what we pay in.
Gross distortion and exaggeration is not unique to the Leave
campaigners. Nor is gullibility unique to those who wish to leave.

"We benefit" means the country's gross product benefits (as I said) but we
get a big share of that. Remember that more trade equals more money going
round of which we all get some, even if not as fair shares as many would
like.

I agree with you, but please can we try and keep this as a referendum-free
zone? There seems little new to say, but it still fills the TV and the
newspapers.

I'm utterly sick of stories about it, and just wish it was all over.
Probably like nearly everyone here, I made up my mind long ago; I suspect
that no-one will have their opinions changed by what they read here.
Indeed, I voted by post weeks ago, so it would be irrelevant anyway.


I've resigned myself to the distinct possibility of Brexit.

Like you say, rehearsing the arguments here will do little to change
minds. However, whilst you might be sick of stories about it, the polls
suggest there are still a lot of people out there unsure of how they
will vote (if they actually vote at all... which is really the saddest
thing of all - I've never failed to vote... I mean for serious stuff,
not X-factor or vote for your favourite Heinz variety!).

On 14/06/2016 13:17, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:44:51
on Tue, 14 Jun 2016, David Cantrell remarked:
But I wonder why you cite Croydon, which does have TfL
services, rather than Bromley and Bexley, which don't?
Just to be pedantic: Bromley has TfL London Overground services from
3 stations in the borough.

Apart from the old East London line, isn't the Overground charged as if
it were a National Rail service?

No, it has special fares, even lower then underground ones.

That's wrong.

LO-only journeys are charged at the TfL rate. On the Euston-Watford Jn
line, there is an arrangement that peak fares are only charged in the
direction of peak flow (so charged as peak in the Euston direction for
touch-ins between 0630-0930, and in the Watford Jn direction between
1600-1900).

LO+NR journeys however are charged at the NR rate, rather than the
higher NR+TfL 'through fare' rate (as would be the case for an NR + Tube
journey).

On 14/06/2016 19:47, Richard wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:19:23 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:
[...]
For a Bromley or Bexley commuter (and I would guess also for
Kingston-upon-Thames), "[a] plan to freeze all TfL fares for the next
four years, so you will not pay a penny more in 2020 than you do in
2016" is just a lie.

If you are referring to rail fares from Bromley, Bexley or Kingston on
Thames, then these are NR fares not TfL fares. Simple fact.

Mizter T! Although absolutely factual (as usual) I think you miss the
suffering caused to us, the citizens of the RBK.

We have to put up with the train + "tube" fare scale, which already
puts us at a disadvantage, and many like me will be using a period
Travelcard. The latter at least is a joint product so our new mayor
is being a little devious when he says what he is (not) doing to TfL
fares. Still, at least the racist didn't get in.


I understand absolutely, I do. It would be much better if there was just
one fare scale for rail-based journeys across London. Unfortunately this
doesn't appear to be remotely on the agenda... (and if it was, it would
of course raise a whole number of questions as to how it would work in
terms of setting the fares).

I am very glad Sadiq won, but also pretty disappointed in Zac... even
his sister was disappointed in him. Still, hopefully the London Tories
learnt something from it.

Mizter T wrote:

On 14/06/2016 19:47, Richard wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:19:23 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:
[...]
For a Bromley or Bexley commuter (and I would guess also for
Kingston-upon-Thames), "[a] plan to freeze all TfL fares for the next
four years, so you will not pay a penny more in 2020 than you do in
2016" is just a lie.

If you are referring to rail fares from Bromley, Bexley or Kingston on
Thames, then these are NR fares not TfL fares. Simple fact.

Mizter T! Although absolutely factual (as usual) I think you miss the
suffering caused to us, the citizens of the RBK.

We have to put up with the train + "tube" fare scale, which already
puts us at a disadvantage, and many like me will be using a period
Travelcard. The latter at least is a joint product so our new mayor
is being a little devious when he says what he is (not) doing to TfL
fares. Still, at least the racist didn't get in.


I understand absolutely, I do. It would be much better if there was just
one fare scale for rail-based journeys across London. Unfortunately this
doesn't appear to be remotely on the agenda... (and if it was, it would
of course raise a whole number of questions as to how it would work in
terms of setting the fares).

I am very glad Sadiq won, but also pretty disappointed in Zac... even
his sister was disappointed in him. Still, hopefully the London Tories
learnt something from it.

The funny thing is that Cameron and Osborne probably agree with Sadiq on
much more than they do Zac or Boris. And I suspect that Sadiq gets on much
better with them than he does with the Corbynistas.

Indeed, Dave, Gideon and Sadiq are all in strong agreement on one
objective: they all want to diss Boris.