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Old June 8th 18, 05:20 PM
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

I've just received an email from TfL announcing that Mr Khan will proceed with his scheme to clamp down on vehicle emissions in the area surrounded by the North and South Circular Roads.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/env...y-consultation

I am a motorist, living in this zone and I hope I will not be affected adversely. To repeat a point I have made numerous times, no attempt will be made to tackle the single biggest reason that vehicle emissions have grown so enormously ever since London was saddled with a Mayor. Mr Khan will posture with accomplished hypocrisy but will not do what needs to be done.

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Old June 8th 18, 06:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 08/06/2018 18:20, Robin9 wrote:
I've just received an email from TfL announcing that Mr Khan will
proceed with his scheme to clamp down on vehicle emissions in the area
surrounded by the North and South Circular Roads.

http://tinyurl.com/y7uz6sht

I am a motorist, living in this zone and I hope I will not be affected
adversely. To repeat a point I have made numerous times, no attempt will
be made to tackle the single biggest reason that vehicle emissions have
grown so enormously ever since London was saddled with a Mayor. Mr Khan
will posture with accomplished hypocrisy but will not do what needs to
be done.

Which is what, and what can be done about it?

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Old June 8th 18, 08:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 08/06/2018 18:20, Robin9 wrote:
I've just received an email from TfL announcing that Mr Khan will
proceed with his scheme to clamp down on vehicle emissions in the area
surrounded by the North and South Circular Roads.

http://tinyurl.com/y7uz6sht


If you read the whole thing, it's worse than that. As of 26th October
2020, any large vehicle going into the current LEZ )(Basically, anywhere
inside the old Green Belt) will have to be Euro 6 or better. That's
every lorry delivering stuff and every bus or coach carrying passengers.

In effect, it means that any commercial vehicle more than 5 years old
(With an expected life of at least 15 years) will have to be expensively
modified, replaced or pay a fee of £200 per day when it's in London. The
modifications on our older coaches will cost £20,000 each, for an
expected life of 5 years or less. Because so many will be on the market,
their value will reduce drastically, so increasing the cost of transport
to everyone in London.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Old June 8th 18, 09:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 08/06/2018 21:51, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/06/2018 18:20, Robin9 wrote:
I've just received an email from TfL announcing that Mr Khan will
proceed with his scheme to clamp down on vehicle emissions in the area
surrounded by the North and South Circular Roads.

http://tinyurl.com/y7uz6sht


If you read the whole thing, it's worse than that. As of 26th October
2020, any large vehicle going into the current LEZ )(Basically, anywhere
inside the old Green Belt) will have to be Euro 6 or better. That's
every lorry delivering stuff and every bus or coach carrying passengers.

In effect, it means that any commercial vehicle more than 5 years old
(With an expected life of at least 15 years) will have to be expensively
modified, replaced or pay a fee of £200 per day when it's in London. The
modifications on our older coaches will cost £20,000 each, for an
expected life of 5 years or less. Because so many will be on the market,
their value will reduce drastically, so increasing the cost of transport
to everyone in London.

In terms of raising the cost of transport for everyone in London,
presumably you refer to the demographic of Londoners who use coaches on
a regular basis?

Given that demographic is pretty small, what value do most pollution
producing coaches bring to most Londoners? The worst examples mirroring
railway routes for the most cost-sensitive commuter which then clog up
the roads and start rat-running in breach of their LSP conditions.

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Old June 8th 18, 09:49 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 08/06/2018 22:13, Someone Somewhere wrote:

In terms of raising the cost of transport for everyone in London,
presumably you refer to the demographic of Londoners who use coaches on
a regular basis?

No, I refer to the demographic that buys stuff in shops, uses buses or
uses coaches, such as the many commuter services. If you buy it in a
shop, it has been delivered by a lorry which will soon need to comply
with Euro 6 rules or pay the penalty charge. Look at the number of
pre-2014 lorries on the road next time you are out and about to see the
scale of the problem.

TfL are replacing buses at a rate that has greatly reduced the residual
value of a bus in the second hand market all over Britain, which is good
news for, say, people in Birmingham, but has increased the net cost of
buying a bus to use in London.

Given that demographic is pretty small, what value do most pollution
producing coaches bring to most Londoners?* The worst examples mirroring
railway routes for the most cost-sensitive commuter which then clog up
the roads and start rat-running in breach of their LSP conditions.

One of the reasons there are so many commuter services duplicating rail
routes is that the service on rail is so bad and expensive. Cure those
problems, and they will nostly disappear.

One reason for the roads being clogged is Boris's Cycle Superhighways,
and since they were completed, average traffic speeds in central London
have reduced from 11mph to 5.5mph for passenger carrying vehicles
permitted to use bus lanes.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Old June 9th 18, 06:32 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 08/06/2018 22:49, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/06/2018 22:13, Someone Somewhere wrote:

In terms of raising the cost of transport for everyone in London,
presumably you refer to the demographic of Londoners who use coaches
on a regular basis?

No, I refer to the demographic that buys stuff in shops, uses buses or
uses coaches, such as the many commuter services. If you buy it in a
shop, it has been delivered by a lorry which will soon need to comply
with Euro 6 rules or pay the penalty charge. Look at the number of
pre-2014 lorries on the road next time you are out and about to see the
scale of the problem.

TfL are replacing buses at a rate that has greatly reduced the residual
value of a bus in the second hand market all over Britain, which is good
news for, say, people in Birmingham, but has increased the net cost of
buying a bus to use in London.

Given that demographic is pretty small, what value do most pollution
producing coaches bring to most Londoners?* The worst examples
mirroring railway routes for the most cost-sensitive commuter which
then clog up the roads and start rat-running in breach of their LSP
conditions.

One of the reasons there are so many commuter services duplicating rail
routes is that the service on rail is so bad and expensive. Cure those
problems, and they will nostly disappear.

One reason for the roads being clogged is Boris's Cycle Superhighways,
and since they were completed, average traffic speeds in central London
have reduced from 11mph to 5.5mph for passenger carrying vehicles
permitted to use bus lanes.


And you make these points as an unbiased, non-coach owning point of view?
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Old June 9th 18, 07:43 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 09/06/2018 07:32, Someone Somewhere wrote:

One reason for the roads being clogged is Boris's Cycle Superhighways,
and since they were completed, average traffic speeds in central
London have reduced from 11mph to 5.5mph for passenger carrying
vehicles permitted to use bus lanes.


And you make these points as an unbiased, non-coach owning point of view?


I make these points as a driver who has no choice but to drive in
London, and use evidence from the coach industry as that's the one I'm
involved in and see the problem it causes us every day. If you check the
freight operators and taxi drivers' pages on social media you will find
the same moans.

However, facts are facts, and if you choose to disbelieve them, that is
your loss.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Old June 9th 18, 08:10 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.



"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 08/06/2018 22:13, Someone Somewhere wrote:

In terms of raising the cost of transport for everyone in London,
presumably you refer to the demographic of Londoners who use coaches on a
regular basis?

No, I refer to the demographic that buys stuff in shops, uses buses or
uses coaches, such as the many commuter services. If you buy it in a shop,
it has been delivered by a lorry which will soon need to comply with Euro
6 rules or pay the penalty charge. Look at the number of pre-2014 lorries
on the road next time you are out and about to see the scale of the
problem.


so people will just have to manage their fleet better and use these vehicles
somewhere else

I realise that there is going to be a number of smaller companies that can't
do this, but for the majority of vehicles surely it is possible?

tim



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Old June 9th 18, 09:05 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 09/06/2018 09:10, tim... wrote:


"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 08/06/2018 22:13, Someone Somewhere wrote:

In terms of raising the cost of transport for everyone in London,
presumably you refer to the demographic of Londoners who use coaches
on a regular basis?

No, I refer to the demographic that buys stuff in shops, uses buses or
uses coaches, such as the many commuter services. If you buy it in a
shop, it has been delivered by a lorry which will soon need to comply
with Euro 6 rules or pay the penalty charge. Look at the number of
pre-2014 lorries on the road next time you are out and about to see
the scale of the problem.


so people will just have to manage their fleet better and use these
vehicles somewhere else

For large companies, that may be possible. Journeys like school
transport and construction industry transport are mostly done by
companies who own a few vehicles, or, in the case of school transport,
often a single vehicle.

I realise that there is going to be a number of smaller companies that
can't do this, but for the majority of vehicles surely it is possible?

The problem is that until very recently, the transport industry believed
that they had until at least the mid 2020's to comply with the new
emissions rules. Now, all of a sudden, vehicles that they bought in good
faith 4 or 5 years ago with an expected service life of 15 years or so,
will now have to be replaced five years or so earlier than expected.
These vehicles serve 15% of the population of the UK. There are many
distribution depots inside the new ULEZ so even lorries that are
delivering to the Home Counties will need to comply with the rules.

One minor London delivery that I've noticed is from a fish supplier in
Cornwall who run a daily delivery to London restaurants. This company
now needs to replace their van 5 years before its normal end of life.

Think of the way that private motorists who were persuaded by the
Government to buy diesel cars by being given tax breaks have now found
them to be worth much less than they were a few months ago before the
authorities announced that all diesel vehicles including cars will be
banned in many London boroughs within a very short time frame, and the
tax benefits of owning a diesel car have been reduced drastically.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Old June 9th 18, 09:19 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Mr. Khan's Latest Environmental Venture.

On 09/06/2018 08:43, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2018 07:32, Someone Somewhere wrote:

One reason for the roads being clogged is Boris's Cycle
Superhighways, and since they were completed, average traffic speeds
in central London have reduced from 11mph to 5.5mph for passenger
carrying vehicles permitted to use bus lanes.


And you make these points as an unbiased, non-coach owning point of view?


I make these points as a driver who has no choice but to drive in
London, and use evidence from the coach industry as that's the one I'm
involved in and see the problem it causes us every day. If you check the
freight operators and taxi drivers' pages on social media you will find
the same moans.

However, facts are facts, and if you choose to disbelieve them, that is
your loss.

This isn't about disbelieving facts, this is about whether coaches (a
subject you bought up) bring benefits to the majority of Londoners
(something else you bought up). You then bought up other points where
you didn't disclose that you were biased from a coach-owning/operating
point of view so I decided to call you out on it.

FWIW, I too believe cycle superhighways are a daftly implemented idea
and I've said so in this very forum.

Furthermore, I say that you're wrong on coaches and they are in fact are
a disbenefit to most Londoners and if they cost more and that shifts
people onto the trains all good for our traffic and our health. Rat
running (in breach of Access Only prohibitions and their LSP) coaches
are a menace to everyone.

Delivery lorries are necessary to support those who both live and work
in London and are a different matter, but that's not where you started
from, and it can be argued that they could be more efficient (both in
how they deliver and how they are fueled to make that delivery).

I too am a driver in London, but I'm also a resident, and any
unnecessary and over-polluting vehicle journey's really should be avoided.

The idea of commuting vast distances should be an anathema and don't get
me started on affordable housing - so much of the whining about that
(and the consequent insanely long commuting) is about having the house
you want, not just adequate accomodation - a £5k commute is worth £150k
in housing costs which can make up a big slice of the differential when
you can still get a 4 bed flat (albeit ex-LA and needing redecoration)
in parts of Zone 2 for less than £450k.


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