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  #131   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 04:24 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 16:00:40 on Mon, 9 Dec 2019,
tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 15:49:26 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:54:39 on Wed, 19 Jun
2019, tim... remarked:

[route for the M25]

The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is
diverted to the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic
will be moved first, with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required
while they connect the new to the old carriageways, then an
overnight closure for the final switch to be made. The same
procedure would then be followed a few months later to divert the
southbound carriageway to the new alignment.

The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight"
beggars
belief.

I disagree.

Build the two new carriageways. At each end, cut them off very
close to
the edge of northbound lane 1 (there's no hard shoulder, right?
if there
is, adjust description accordingly).

Cone off northbound lane 1. Spend a week or two filling in the narrow
gap between the old and new northbounds at each end.

Not sure that you even need a closure to switch over. Simply move all
the cones.

Repeat for the southbound (though this time you're closing lane 4).

Yes, that's what I'm expecting.

I have never in my life seen construction companies do this

For once I agree with Tim.

While it's not quite the M25, the A14 is one of the busiest dual
carriageways in the country.

They've recently finished (ahead of schedule) building the green-fields
bypass round the southwest of Huntingdon, and now just need to splice it
onto the old road towards Cambridge and the M11.

And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow
on from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their
way from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they
should be.


Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the
cars caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.

When I say negligible, I mean you can count the number you see in
fifteen minutes on that extremely busy dual carriageway, on the
fingers of one hand.

Of course people buying into that urban myth were recently joined by
the majority describing the truck full of deceased vietnamese
migrants as a "refrigerated container", when it's nothing of the
sort. It's a trailer, and we don't put those onto trains.


you seem to be arguing that trucks hauling trailers, as opposed to flat
beds with a container on top, are somehow different on their effect to
other road users

don't see that distinction myself


The distinction is whether or not they can be abstracted from the road
by sticking them on a train.

--
Roland Perry

  #132   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 04:29 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 16:41:19 on Mon, 9 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:13:38 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019,
remarked:
And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should be.


Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.


Whatever the governmental reason for it, no one in the area wanted the damn
bypass. Its just more countryside carved up and more farmland disappeared under
concrete to make a few minutes savings in journey times.


Clearly you don't actually understand the problem, which is daily
traffic jams of half an hour or more.

Of course people buying into that urban myth were recently joined by the
majority describing the truck full of deceased vietnamese migrants as a
"refrigerated container", when it's nothing of the sort. It's a trailer,
and we don't put those onto trains.


Only because of our daft loading gauge. They do it in other countries.


How many of the trailers arrive on our shores at container ports. None I
think you'll find. Therefore even if the loading gauge was higher a
Corbynistic hundred billion pound upgrade I suspect), there's no demand.

Meanwhile the container trains trundling through the Fens parallel to
the A14 are very rarely full (and frequently almost completely empty),
so there's plenty of spare capacity.


Which should be used. If companies don't want to use it then slap a massive
tax on every truck coming out of the port with a container which is going to
a destination that could be reached part or whole of the way by rail.


There are very few such containers, because they are already travelling
by rail if at all possible. Apart from anything else it's vastly
cheaper.
--
Roland Perry
  #133   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 04:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,587
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 09/12/2019 16:41, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:13:38 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019,
remarked:
And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should be.


Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.


Whatever the governmental reason for it, no one in the area wanted the damn
bypass. Its just more countryside carved up and more farmland disappeared under
concrete to make a few minutes savings in journey times.

Of course people buying into that urban myth were recently joined by the
majority describing the truck full of deceased vietnamese migrants as a
"refrigerated container", when it's nothing of the sort. It's a trailer,
and we don't put those onto trains.


Only because of our daft loading gauge. They do it in other countries.


Well, jusr roll out your time machine and go back and tell George to
make the b****y things bigger.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #134   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 05:45 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,065
Default Latest Heathrow master plan



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:00:40 on Mon, 9 Dec 2019,
tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 15:49:26 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:54:39 on Wed, 19 Jun
2019, tim... remarked:

[route for the M25]

The only disruption will come at the end, when the traffic is
diverted to the new route. My guess is that the northbound traffic
will be moved first, with a few weeks of lane 1 closures required
while they connect the new to the old carriageways, then an
overnight closure for the final switch to be made. The same
procedure would then be followed a few months later to divert the
southbound carriageway to the new alignment.

The amount of work you would be expecting them to do "overnight"
beggars
belief.

I disagree.

Build the two new carriageways. At each end, cut them off very close
to
the edge of northbound lane 1 (there's no hard shoulder, right? if
there
is, adjust description accordingly).

Cone off northbound lane 1. Spend a week or two filling in the
narrow
gap between the old and new northbounds at each end.

Not sure that you even need a closure to switch over. Simply move
all
the cones.

Repeat for the southbound (though this time you're closing lane 4).

Yes, that's what I'm expecting.

I have never in my life seen construction companies do this

For once I agree with Tim.

While it's not quite the M25, the A14 is one of the busiest dual
carriageways in the country.

They've recently finished (ahead of schedule) building the green-fields
bypass round the southwest of Huntingdon, and now just need to splice
it
onto the old road towards Cambridge and the M11.

And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in
a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on
from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way
from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should
be.

Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.

When I say negligible, I mean you can count the number you see in
fifteen minutes on that extremely busy dual carriageway, on the fingers
of one hand.

Of course people buying into that urban myth were recently joined by the
majority describing the truck full of deceased vietnamese migrants as a
"refrigerated container", when it's nothing of the sort. It's a trailer,
and we don't put those onto trains.


you seem to be arguing that trucks hauling trailers, as opposed to flat
beds with a container on top, are somehow different on their effect to
other road users

don't see that distinction myself


The distinction is whether or not they can be abstracted from the road by
sticking them on a train.


for me, the distinction was the fact that you claimed it's an urban myth
that there's a minimal number of "containers" using road

Most people won't distinguish between containers and trailers

they are both annoying vehicles to have surrounding you and they have both
come off the ferry.

trying to tell people that "there aren't many containers off the ferry"
without making it clear that you aren't counting most of the trucks because
they are trailers, is daft

tim





--
Roland Perry


  #135   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 05:46 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,065
Default Latest Heathrow master plan



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:41:19 on Mon, 9 Dec 2019,
remarked:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:13:38 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019,
remarked:
And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in
a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on
from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way
from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should
be.

Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.


Whatever the governmental reason for it, no one in the area wanted the
damn
bypass. Its just more countryside carved up and more farmland disappeared
under
concrete to make a few minutes savings in journey times.


Clearly you don't actually understand the problem, which is daily traffic
jams of half an hour or more.

Of course people buying into that urban myth were recently joined by the
majority describing the truck full of deceased vietnamese migrants as a
"refrigerated container", when it's nothing of the sort. It's a trailer,
and we don't put those onto trains.


Only because of our daft loading gauge. They do it in other countries.


How many of the trailers arrive on our shores at container ports. None I
think you'll find. Therefore even if the loading gauge was higher a
Corbynistic hundred billion pound upgrade I suspect), there's no demand.


the trailers arrive at Harwich





  #136   Report Post  
Old December 9th 19, 05:59 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,982
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

In message , at 18:45:13 on Mon, 9 Dec 2019,
tim... remarked:

you seem to be arguing that trucks hauling trailers, as opposed to
flat beds with a container on top, are somehow different on their
effect to other road users

don't see that distinction myself


The distinction is whether or not they can be abstracted from the
road by sticking them on a train.


for me, the distinction was the fact that you claimed it's an urban
myth that there's a minimal number of "containers" using road


No, I said it was an urban myth that *more* than a handful of containers
were using the road.

Most people won't distinguish between containers and trailers

they are both annoying vehicles to have surrounding you and they have
both come off the ferry.


Not off the container ships. And probably not off the completely
separate RORO ferries. If you look at the HGVs on the A14 they are
predominately domestic-domestic.

trying to tell people that "there aren't many containers off the ferry"
without making it clear that you aren't counting most of the trucks
because they are trailers, is daft


See above; I wasn't claiming that.
--
Roland Perry
  #137   Report Post  
Old December 10th 19, 11:29 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jun 2019
Posts: 278
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 17:29:21 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:41:19 on Mon, 9 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:13:38 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019,
remarked:
And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on

from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should be.

Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.


Whatever the governmental reason for it, no one in the area wanted the damn
bypass. Its just more countryside carved up and more farmland disappeared

under
concrete to make a few minutes savings in journey times.


Clearly you don't actually understand the problem, which is daily
traffic jams of half an hour or more.


Aww, poor things, a whole 30 mins. They should try the 1+ hour jams I had to
endure on the north circular when I commuted by car. And that was 5 years ago,
probably worse now. Also how exactly do you get a 30 min jam in the few miles
that this bypass is avoiding from a tiny town like Huntingdon when its already
all dual carraigeway?

How many of the trailers arrive on our shores at container ports. None I
think you'll find. Therefore even if the loading gauge was higher a


Not at container ports, but plenty of trailers get loaded and unloaded at
Ro-ro ports.

Which should be used. If companies don't want to use it then slap a massive
tax on every truck coming out of the port with a container which is going to
a destination that could be reached part or whole of the way by rail.


There are very few such containers, because they are already travelling
by rail if at all possible. Apart from anything else it's vastly


If that was the case you'd barely see any in Essex.

  #138   Report Post  
Old December 10th 19, 11:55 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,065
Default Latest Heathrow master plan



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 18:45:13 on Mon, 9 Dec 2019,
tim... remarked:

you seem to be arguing that trucks hauling trailers, as opposed to flat
beds with a container on top, are somehow different on their effect to
other road users

don't see that distinction myself

The distinction is whether or not they can be abstracted from the road
by sticking them on a train.


for me, the distinction was the fact that you claimed it's an urban myth
that there's a minimal number of "containers" using road


No, I said it was an urban myth that *more* than a handful of containers
were using the road.


you need to explain how that's not the same thing



Most people won't distinguish between containers and trailers

they are both annoying vehicles to have surrounding you and they have both
come off the ferry.


Not off the container ships. And probably not off the completely separate
RORO ferries. If you look at the HGVs on the A14 they are predominately
domestic-domestic.


even if they are, they are still using that route as a proxy for M25/A1 that
they used to use

trying to tell people that "there aren't many containers off the ferry"
without making it clear that you aren't counting most of the trucks
because they are trailers, is daft


See above; I wasn't claiming that.


still don't see it

tim



  #139   Report Post  
Old December 10th 19, 01:03 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 9,982
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In message , at 12:55:29 on Tue, 10 Dec
2019, tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 18:45:13 on Mon, 9 Dec
2019, tim... remarked:

you seem to be arguing that trucks hauling trailers, as opposed to
flat beds with a container on top, are somehow different on their
effect to other road users

don't see that distinction myself

The distinction is whether or not they can be abstracted from the
road by sticking them on a train.

for me, the distinction was the fact that you claimed it's an urban
myth that there's a minimal number of "containers" using road


No, I said it was an urban myth that *more* than a handful of
containers were using the road.


you need to explain how that's not the same thing


Because the public apparently look at curtain sided HGVs with UK
domestic brand logos, and identify it as a container that's arrived
from the Far East at Felixstowe (and should be on a train)

Most people won't distinguish between containers and trailers

they are both annoying vehicles to have surrounding you and they have
both come off the ferry.


Not off the container ships. And probably not off the completely
separate RORO ferries. If you look at the HGVs on the A14 they are
predominately domestic-domestic.


even if they are, they are still using that route as a proxy for M25/A1
that they used to use


What has that got to do with moving containers onto rail?

trying to tell people that "there aren't many containers off the
ferry" without making it clear that you aren't counting most of the
trucks because they are trailers, is daft


See above; I wasn't claiming that.


still don't see it


What's "it"? Containers on the A14, in which case I'll agree with you.
--
Roland Perry
  #140   Report Post  
Old December 10th 19, 01:22 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 9,982
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

In message , at 12:29:52 on Tue, 10 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 17:29:21 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:41:19 on Mon, 9 Dec
2019,
remarked:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:13:38 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:19:42 on Sun, 8 Dec
2019,
remarked:
And don't the local residents know it. I have some relatives who live in a
village near there. 2 years ago it was lovely green fields down the road
from their house , now theres a bloody dual carraigeway with all the
accompanying noise and pollution they'll soon have to enjoy to follow on

from
all the construction work. All so trucks can save 10 mins on their way from
Felixstow instead of putting the containers on trains where they should be.

Nobody cares how much the time the trucks save, it's mainly for the cars
caught up in jams along with other cars. There's negligible HGV
container traffic on that flow anyway, it's one of the enduring local
urban myths.

Whatever the governmental reason for it, no one in the area wanted the damn
bypass. Its just more countryside carved up and more farmland disappeared

under
concrete to make a few minutes savings in journey times.


Clearly you don't actually understand the problem, which is daily
traffic jams of half an hour or more.


Aww, poor things, a whole 30 mins. They should try the 1+ hour jams I had to
endure on the north circular when I commuted by car. And that was 5 years ago,
probably worse now. Also how exactly do you get a 30 min jam in the few miles
that this bypass is avoiding from a tiny town like Huntingdon when its already
all dual carraigeway?


The jam is on the vastly over-subscribed dual carriageway which
currently doubles as the Huntingdon inner ring road, plus the only major
road between Huntingdon and Cambridge (any of the periphery, let alone
the centre).

How many of the trailers arrive on our shores at container ports. None I
think you'll find. Therefore even if the loading gauge was higher a


Not at container ports, but plenty of trailers get loaded and unloaded at
Ro-ro ports.


In the peaks, which are entirely car-created, there are 1000 HGVs an
hour and 6000 other vehicles (about half of which are people who work in
Cambridge). That's a total of one a second, and it's only a two lane
road. So much for keeping a two second gap.

Worse than that, the *total* of cars and HGVs using the most congested
part of the A14, which have come from the East (which you'll need to if
port traffic) is only 250 an hour. That's including all cars, and all
HGVs from places other than the ports. The port traffic, even including
trailers, is tiny.

Which should be used. If companies don't want to use it then slap a massive
tax on every truck coming out of the port with a container which is going to
a destination that could be reached part or whole of the way by rail.


There are very few such containers, because they are already travelling
by rail if at all possible. Apart from anything else it's vastly


If that was the case you'd barely see any in Essex.


If you mean "on the A12" that's a different scenario completely. Many of
those containers will be heading for destinations not served by a rail
terminal, compared to the ones in the Midlands and the North that the
trains via Bury, Ely and Peterborough are carrying.
--
Roland Perry


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