In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
I don't think you are a very typical traveller. Most are very
unadventurous when it comes to foreign countries, and hence the race for
taxis (and HEx's mission to replace taxis).

Depends who the travellers are. I'm currently at an ICANN meeting (I know
you know who they are) whose travel department's phobia of public transport
that is not an airplane is just comic. But I don't think it's universal.

As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Huh, I do it all the time. I can think of Frankfurt, Paris CDG,
Munich, Barcelona, Narita, Haneda, Seoul (now permanently bustituted),
Hong Kong, and Singapore. And Gatwick and Prestwick, since I live in
the US.

I was a bit put off by the difficulty of collecting a pre-bought TGV
ticket in Paris, though.

Gee, it's easy to put your SNCF ticket on your smartphone. (Yes, I
know.)

It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

How many of the Crossrail stations will have taxi ranks?

I dunno. I was thinking that a lot of them will be within walking
distance of where one wants to go.

And how widespread is contactless outside the UK? The USA is catching up
rapidly, but is probably still in single figure percentages.

In the US and Canada I see lots of contactless cards, now that it's a
standard feature of new point-of-sale terminals.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised. The Long Island Railroad also goes to that
Airtrain much faster and lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train
goes to Newark airport via another airtrain and it's also quite
popular.

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.


And the same is true in London of course. The Tube runs a much more
frequent (12 tph vs 4 tph), but slower stopping service to Heathrow, and
the trains are packed with suitcases and travellers (many of them foreign).
It carries significantly more pax than HEx and TfL Rail combined.

"The Piccadilly Line accounts for the bulk of the rail and tube journeys to
Heathrow (42 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the airport by
public transport and 16 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the
airport by all modes)."

https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites/default/files/research-files/surface-access-final.pdf

In message , at 22:54:23 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
John Levine remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
I don't think you are a very typical traveller. Most are very
unadventurous when it comes to foreign countries, and hence the race for
taxis (and HEx's mission to replace taxis).

Depends who the travellers are. I'm currently at an ICANN meeting (I know
you know who they are)

I'm vaguely following the proceedings from Montreal on social media.

whose travel department's phobia of public transport

I've been to about a dozen, even by train for Paris, Brussels and London
(although the latter is hardly surprising as there are no flights from
Cambridge to London). But never had any involvement from their travel
department.

Because it was my third or fourth trip to the City, I used public
transport to get to get from the airport to their meeting in Prague. I
know the RIR policy would be "you must be mad - we'll order you a limo".

that is not an airplane is just comic. But I don't think it's universal.

The RIRs are almost as bad!

As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Huh, I do it all the time.

Every *first* time you visit these places?

I can think of Frankfurt, Paris CDG, Munich, Barcelona, Narita, Haneda,
Seoul (now permanently bustituted), Hong Kong, and Singapore. And
Gatwick and Prestwick, since I live in the US.

You are much more travelled than average. And quite likely visit them
more than once, so you have a chance to come to grips with the local
peculiarities. For example, I've been to Seoul twice now, and the second
time I took an express coach back to the airport. The railway line
stopped short.

I was a bit put off by the difficulty of collecting a pre-bought TGV
ticket in Paris, though.

Gee, it's easy to put your SNCF ticket on your smartphone. (Yes, I
know.)

My experience with using foreign transport apps (and I *have* tried) is
that between them either not apparently working at all, and the steep
learning curve, if you are visiting for the first time it's easier to
just buy a paper ticket when you get there.

The HEx app scores an impressive 1.8 stars (almost all the scores are 1
- "terrible").

It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

How many of the Crossrail stations will have taxi ranks?

I dunno. I was thinking that a lot of them will be within walking
distance of where one wants to go.

The kind of airline passenger who would normally have got a taxi
door-to-door previously, but decides to give HEx a try instead, isn't
likely to be wanting to be wandering round London on foot in all
weathers with with their baggage trying to find heir hotel.

And how widespread is contactless outside the UK? The USA is catching up
rapidly, but is probably still in single figure percentages.

In the US and Canada I see lots of contactless cards, now that it's a
standard feature of new point-of-sale terminals.

There's a lot more issued so far in Canada than USA, apparently.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:43:10 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
John Levine remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised.

What I mean is that city subways get tarred with that brush,
irrespective of whether or not the NY on goes anywhere near an airport.

The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:07:30 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:
John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised. The Long Island Railroad also goes to that
Airtrain much faster and lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train
goes to Newark airport via another airtrain and it's also quite
popular.

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.


And the same is true in London of course. The Tube runs a much more
frequent (12 tph vs 4 tph), but slower stopping service to Heathrow, and
the trains are packed with suitcases and travellers (many of them foreign).
It carries significantly more pax than HEx and TfL Rail combined.

"The Piccadilly Line accounts for the bulk of the rail and tube journeys to
Heathrow (42 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the airport by
public transport and 16 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the
airport by all modes)."

That's fine for the people comfortable using it. HEx is for the
passengers who would in normal circumstances take a taxi.

https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites...ch-files/surfa
ce-access-final.pdf


--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:06:47 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:05:39 on Wed, 6 Nov
2019, remarked:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:16:22 on Sun, 3 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It's not just tourists and Heathrow workers who have to get to the
airport:
plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail
when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will
immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

Remember that HEx and Crossrail will be using the same stations and even
the same platforms at Heathrow. That doesn't happen with local commuter
services.

Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

People waiting for a HEx train at Heathrow Central might have to let
a Crossrail service go first, from the same platform. That's not like the
Tube or Gatwick Southern services, which aren't visible from the Express
platforms.

This, of course, will probably lead to confusion between the services: will
people always get on their intended train?

Do many people today get on HEx services if they've only got a Connect
ticket? I don't know, but it's not something that hits the headlines.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:43:10 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
John Levine remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised.

What I mean is that city subways get tarred with that brush,
irrespective of whether or not the NY on goes anywhere near an airport.

The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

Yes, it's straightforward racial prejudice with MARTA. That could also
apply to some other public transit systems that serve airports.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:06:47 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:05:39 on Wed, 6 Nov
2019, remarked:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:16:22 on Sun, 3 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It's not just tourists and Heathrow workers who have to get to the
airport:
plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail
when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will
immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

Remember that HEx and Crossrail will be using the same stations and even
the same platforms at Heathrow. That doesn't happen with local commuter
services.

Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.


People waiting for a HEx train at Heathrow Central might have to let
a Crossrail service go first, from the same platform. That's not like the
Tube or Gatwick Southern services, which aren't visible from the Express
platforms.

This, of course, will probably lead to confusion between the services: will
people always get on their intended train?

Do many people today get on HEx services if they've only got a Connect
ticket? I don't know, but it's not something that hits the headlines.

I don't know either, but it's likely to happen much more with the more
frequent Crossrail services.

In message , at 16:35:39 on Thu, 7 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:35:39 on Thu, 7 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

Not at all: the keenest taxi users use taxis anyway, not HEx. For many
people, Paddington just isn't in the right place, even to get a taxi. And
you seem to under-estimate the effort in getting from the HEx Padd platform
to the taxi rank; many Crossrail stations will have more convenient taxi
ranks.

People, particularly with luggage, or if travelling as a couple or family,
will find a door-to-door taxi much more convenient than taking a train part
of the way, then getting a taxi. So HEx only gets a subset of possible taxi
users. And that subset will shrink when Crossrail gets going.


How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Probably large signs advertising Crossrail's lower prices. They'll also see
the much more useful route map.


Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.

Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people
heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would
be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.