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Old November 11th 19, 06:01 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

In article , John Levine
writes
San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I
have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one).

Never took BART into the city? Works great.


I've used BART many times in the past. But every time I've flown to SFO
since BART reached the airport, I've been going to somewhere like San
Jose or Santa Cruz.

DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public
transport I can find.

There's now a tram that runs into Dallas, fine if you're going where
it goes. Otherwise you need a car.


D != FW

--
Clive D.W. Feather

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Old November 11th 19, 06:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:49:05 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that


line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a


Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone

up
the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit.
Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be
a year away.


More, now.

The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far
from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains
from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away.


Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same
people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the
ones doing crossrail.

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Old November 11th 19, 07:33 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:49:05 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that


line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a

Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone

up
the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit.
Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be
a year away.


More, now.

The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far
from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains
from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away.


Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same
people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the
ones doing crossrail.


No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station
reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently
scheduled opening date is Sep 2021.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/exclusive-northern-line-extension-to-open-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/

Both the Battersea contractors are also involved in Crossrail.

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Old November 11th 19, 09:21 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

In article , Graeme Wall
writes
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.


You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.


Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options.

--
Clive D.W. Feather
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Old November 12th 19, 08:04 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

On 11/11/2019 22:21, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.


You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.


Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options.


Machines right next to the counter where you get the CAT tickets.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.



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Old November 12th 19, 12:16 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.


It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Caf and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.


Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.


To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.

Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.

While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.
--
Roland Perry
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Old November 12th 19, 12:19 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

In message , at 09:49:42 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:15:34 on Sun, 10 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:35:36 on Fri, 8 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from
platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice,
leafy parts just near the station.


Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to
tangle with the streets outside.

It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the
station or the area.


Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected
because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but
got much more of an inner-city experience.

And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington?


The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would
they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more
familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what
they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the
suburbs.

Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.


I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.


You seem to think that the HEx target market consists solely of rich,
ignorant, timorous foreigners, travelling to London for the first time, who
have done precisely zero research into how to get to the address in London
they're aiming for. You also think that very particular market will be
large enough to survive after Crossrail.

I don't think many agree with you.


Certainly they aren't expected to agree with your exaggerated version of
the target market I've described.

I certainly don't.


You must agree with it more than you claim, or you wouldn't need to
distort it in an attempt to play to the gallery.
--
Roland Perry
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Old November 12th 19, 03:40 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.


Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.


To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.


That's the HEx share. The Tube carries about twice as many.


Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.

While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.


Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many
HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without
changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That
explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022.

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Old November 12th 19, 05:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

In message , at 16:40:06 on Tue, 12 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Caf and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.


To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.


That's the HEx share.


HEx plus Heathrow Connect, although the split is in the region of nine
percentage points for HEx, and one for Connect. The latter is not nearly
as popular as people here imagine.

The Tube carries about twice as many.


18% according to the survey I was quoting. But that's not the point -
which is that HEx is *not* the choice of 90(+)%, but is still based on a
solid business case. That 9% using HEx have very good reasons for doing
so, even if our "from the 90% (or is that 91%)" correspondents here are
in denial.

Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.

While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.


Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many
HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without
changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That
explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022.


And you are determined to ignore the reasons why people take the
"airport express" rather than grappling with what they perceive to be
the local commuter services.

33% of passengers use a taxi (or private hire) which is of course the
ultimate default when in a strange country. Not all of those will be
heading towards Central London, but the main reason for HEx was to limit
that percentage as much as possible to reduce road congestion/pollution,
by abstracting those passengers who could be attracted by a fast, sexy,
"airport express", with chuggers selling tickets.

You might dislike the chuggers, but the people who are winning here are
other road users and local residents breathing the air[2]. Significant
numbers of those choosing HEx would not be seen dead on a local commuter
service (or more to the point, might suspect they'd be dead if they were
ever seen on it).

An enquiry by the London Assembly in 2011 (looking at LHR air pollution
and the possibilities of encouraging modal shift) heard evidence that
while it was predicted by the DfT that combined rail+tube passenger
numbers would increase by a whole one percentage point (woo-hoo!) when
Crossrail opens[1], but if Crossrail were to grab HEx paths in order to
increase their frequency above 6tph, then rail's modal share would
shrink three percentage points as a result of losing the "Express"
perception (and delivery) of HEx.

In other words, six percentage points would more or less grudgingly
catch Crossrail instead of HEx, but three percentage points would revert
to taxi.

In summary: your gut feel is contradicted by the people who have a
proper feel for the demographic and the actual numbers at their
fingertips.

[1] This obscures an unstated number of passengers switching from tube
to Crossrail, but obviously Crossrail's gain is the tube's loss.
It's public transport share which they were concentrating on.

[2] And in a completely different space, the airport seeking permission
to increase the number of flights as long as it can encourage most
of the additional passengers to use public transport to the airport.
--
Roland Perry
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Old November 12th 19, 06:35 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:33:25 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same
people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not

the
ones doing crossrail.


No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station
reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently
scheduled opening date is Sep 2021.


Oh well. The TV program I watched about it was obviously somewhat optimistic.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/lat...extension-to-o
pen-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/


I suppose 634m isn't too bad for a few miles of bored tube tunnel and stations
under London considering the jocks managed to blow almost 800m on 9 miles of
tram line which is a pretty staggering achievement and is almost crossfail
standard.



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