On Thu, 27 May 2004 00:08:11 +0100, Kat
wrote in :
In message , John
writes
Last year our mate Ken made lots of noises about requiring TfL to get on
with cooling the tube, etc. It all seems to have gone quiet - anyone
know whether any progress has been made?

Only mention I've seen recently on the posters about carrying water in
hot weather refers to "new technologies" for cooling the tube.
Maybe they are looking into geothermal heat pumps...

Or maybe they read our thread here a few years ago where we
calculated the viability of using ice to cool carriages...

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

In article , Stuart
writes

Eh? how can water have a sell-by date. It's water, it doesn't go off.
Wrong - it's bottled mineral water - they all have a sell/use by date.
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.

In article , Dave Arquati
writes
John wrote:
In article , M J Forbes
writes

"Gary Jenkins" wrote in message
e.com...

During the hot spell last week the announcer at Westminster Tube was
advising passengers to carry bottled water with them.

As far as I know the tube has been operating for over 100 yeras
without any seriious incidents of dehydrated passengers. Have the
operators now lost confidenc in their ability to get people to their
destination within a reasonable time?

For the last two summers, bottled water was being handed out at many central
tube stations free of charge in the mornings, although I strongly suspect
that this gesture was entirely at the expense of Volvic/Evian/Whoever,
rather than being a LU or TFL-sponsored thing ....

Matt

Last year our mate Ken made lots of noises about requiring TfL to get on
with cooling the tube, etc. It all seems to have gone quiet - anyone
know whether any progress has been made?

John

One of his manifesto points is to have air-conditioning installed on the
new subsurface fleet, thus bringing it to at least four lines (assuming
the ELLX will use other, mainline stock - if it ever gets built).


So what options exist?

1) air con trains - where does the heat go?

2) cool tunnels - heck of a lot to cool

3) cool stations - cools tunnels as well...

Thoughts

--
John Alexander,

Stuart writes:
Eh? how can water have a sell-by date. It's water, it doesn't go off.

It's in plastic bottles. Plastic can deteriorate, and probably leach
into the water too.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | ... "reasonable system" is of course defined as
| "any one *I've* ever used..." -- Steve Summit

In article ,
(John) wrote:

In article , Dave Arquati
writes
John wrote:
In article , M J
Forbes
writes

"Gary Jenkins" wrote in message
e.com...

During the hot spell last week the announcer at Westminster Tube was
advising passengers to carry bottled water with them.

As far as I know the tube has been operating for over 100 yeras
without any seriious incidents of dehydrated passengers. Have the
operators now lost confidenc in their ability to get people to their
destination within a reasonable time?

For the last two summers, bottled water was being handed out at many
central
tube stations free of charge in the mornings, although I strongly
suspect
that this gesture was entirely at the expense of
Volvic/Evian/Whoever,
rather than being a LU or TFL-sponsored thing ....

Matt

Last year our mate Ken made lots of noises about requiring TfL to
get on
with cooling the tube, etc. It all seems to have gone quiet - anyone
know whether any progress has been made?

John

One of his manifesto points is to have air-conditioning installed on
the new subsurface fleet, thus bringing it to at least four lines
(assuming the ELLX will use other, mainline stock - if it ever gets
built).


So what options exist?

1) air con trains - where does the heat go?

2) cool tunnels - heck of a lot to cool

3) cool stations - cools tunnels as well...

Thoughts

--
John Alexander,



The 1995 stock(Northern)(and I assume the 1996 stock (Jubilee)) have
proper air conditioning in the cab, which has no opening windows or doors
- or shouldn't have when the train is in motion.

Given the fact that they can't even maintain these - instead of an 18
degree temperature when the air is chilled, the unit either recycles the
warm air in the cab and sometimes actually heats the air - I cannot see
them actually being able to do anything full scale on the train.

Roger
(my reader sometimes loses mail/newsgroup messages
- if you think you should have had a reply/comment,
please e-mail me again. Ta!)

In article ,
writes
In article ,
(John) wrote:

In article , Dave Arquati
writes
John wrote:
In article , M J
Forbes
writes

"Gary Jenkins" wrote in message
e.com...

During the hot spell last week the announcer at Westminster Tube was
advising passengers to carry bottled water with them.

As far as I know the tube has been operating for over 100 yeras
without any seriious incidents of dehydrated passengers. Have the
operators now lost confidenc in their ability to get people to their
destination within a reasonable time?

For the last two summers, bottled water was being handed out at many
central
tube stations free of charge in the mornings, although I strongly
suspect
that this gesture was entirely at the expense of
Volvic/Evian/Whoever,
rather than being a LU or TFL-sponsored thing ....

Matt

Last year our mate Ken made lots of noises about requiring TfL to
get on
with cooling the tube, etc. It all seems to have gone quiet - anyone
know whether any progress has been made?

John

One of his manifesto points is to have air-conditioning installed on
the new subsurface fleet, thus bringing it to at least four lines
(assuming the ELLX will use other, mainline stock - if it ever gets
built).


So what options exist?

1) air con trains - where does the heat go?

2) cool tunnels - heck of a lot to cool

3) cool stations - cools tunnels as well...

Thoughts

--
John Alexander,



The 1995 stock(Northern)(and I assume the 1996 stock (Jubilee)) have
proper air conditioning in the cab, which has no opening windows or doors
- or shouldn't have when the train is in motion.

Given the fact that they can't even maintain these - instead of an 18
degree temperature when the air is chilled, the unit either recycles the
warm air in the cab and sometimes actually heats the air - I cannot see
them actually being able to do anything full scale on the train.

Roger
(my reader sometimes loses mail/newsgroup messages
- if you think you should have had a reply/comment,
please e-mail me again. Ta!)
I agree, the idea of cooling the trains on the tube lines is ridiculous
until you extract heat from the stations and tunnel system first. The
sub-surface lines seem an easy target since, at least for part of their
journey, the heat can be exhausted to the atmosphere. However, there are
quite long sections in tunnel and I can see them (and the stations
principally in them as well) getting a lot hotter.

What is the problem with having a heat pump to suck heat out of a deep
tube platform to a liquid (water?) and then to pump the liquid to the
surface and chill the liquid there for return to the platform? Any
refrigeration engineers out there?
--
John Alexander,

"John" wrote in message

What is the problem with having a heat pump to suck heat out of a deep
tube platform to a liquid (water?) and then to pump the liquid to the
surface and chill the liquid there for return to the platform? Any
refrigeration engineers out there?
--

Money.

Also the equipment used will generate more heat.

John Alexander:
I agree, the idea of cooling the trains on the tube lines is ridiculous
until you extract heat from the stations and tunnel system first...

Any sort of air-conditioning, to provide effective relief, would have
to work no matter whether the train was on a surface, subsurface, or
deep tube section. Therefore it would be necessary to air-condition
the trains *as well* as applying measures to extract heat from the
tunnels and stations.

What is the problem with having a heat pump to suck heat out of a deep
tube platform to a liquid (water?) and then to pump the liquid to the
surface and chill the liquid there for return to the platform?

As someone else said, it's just a matter of money. You either need to
do something like that, or you need to move enough additional air through
the tunnels and stations to ameliorate the heat buildup. The Channel
Tunnel has a cold-water pipe running through each bore to absorb heat
from the trains; the subway systems in New York and Toronto, on the
other hand, without the deep and narrow tunnels that London has, run
air-conditioned trains and let normal air circulation deal with the heat.

Incidentally, a new air-conditioning system http://www.enwave.com
is now coming into use for major downtown buildings here in Toronto,
taking advantage of our location on Lake Ontario. Heat from these
buildings is transferred into water being drawn from the lake for the
city's drinking water system; the drinking water won't get significantly
warmer than it now does in summer, because the water used for this
purpose is coming from a new feed deeper in the lake where the temp-
erature is always 4 Celsius (at which water is densest). Unfortunately,
London doesn't have a Great Lake next to it...
--
Mark Brader "That's what progress is for. Progress
Toronto is for creating new forms of aggravation."
-- Keith Jackson

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Mark Brader wrote:
snip
Incidentally, a new air-conditioning system http://www.enwave.com
is now coming into use for major downtown buildings here in Toronto,
taking advantage of our location on Lake Ontario. Heat from these
buildings is transferred into water being drawn from the lake for
the city's drinking water system; the drinking water won't get
significantly warmer than it now does in summer, because the water
used for this purpose is coming from a new feed deeper in the lake
where the temp- erature is always 4 Celsius (at which water is
densest). Unfortunately, London doesn't have a Great Lake next to
it...

Yes, it does! According to LU's Environmental Report for 2003, they
pump over 30 million litres of water out of the tunnels every day. The
water originates either from the rising water table under London or from
leaking water mains.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sat, 29 May 2004 23:38:07 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:

snip

Incidentally, a new air-conditioning system http://www.enwave.com
is now coming into use for major downtown buildings here in Toronto,
taking advantage of our location on Lake Ontario. Heat from these
buildings is transferred into water being drawn from the lake for the
city's drinking water system; the drinking water won't get significantly
warmer than it now does in summer, because the water used for this
purpose is coming from a new feed deeper in the lake where the temp-
erature is always 4 Celsius (at which water is densest). Unfortunately,
London doesn't have a Great Lake next to it...

Not really a new system, as such.

The Liverpool Post & Echo Building used/uses water pumped from the
Mersey Tunnel (I think Birkenhead Road one that is) from about the
early 1970's. Outfall is by the Peir Head Floats.

Keith J Chesworth
www.unseenlondon.co.uk
www.blackpooltram.co.uk
www.happysnapper.com
www.boilerbill.com - main site
www.amerseyferry.co.uk