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Old April 28th 06, 06:33 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

Forgery or theft are beyond a driver's job to detect, but checking
Photocards is simple enough.


But do bus drivers have the power to demand to see a photocard? They are
conventionally required to be shown to revenue inspectors and station
staff - and, in some cases, when buying a ticket - but I haven't yet
seen any evidence that drivers are empowered to demand to see them.

I could be wrong (having not researched far), but the Oyster reader in a
bus seems to be much like the one in a tube station - if the pass is
valid it doesn't go on to ask to see a photocard before letting you
through.

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Old April 28th 06, 06:34 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:44:49 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or
apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange
Freedom Pass on London buses?


A friend of mine, 35 years old and apparently healthy looking, is living with
HIV. This means he is officially disabled and he carries a Freedom Pass to
which he is entitled.

I don't suppose drivers would care to ask people who do not look disabled what
their disability is. If a Freedom Pass is stolen, I believe that like an
Oyster Card it can be cancelled. So the presumption is that the person is
disabled and the pass is legal.

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Old April 28th 06, 06:45 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

On 2006-04-28, Tristán White wrote:
Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or
apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange
Freedom Pass on London buses?


snip

Could someone explain more?


I don't think a bus driver or conductor has either the knowledge or the
time to carry out a thorough physical, medical, psychiatric, and
psychological, examination of any passenger - and nowhere to do it in
private, either )

At least in my borough, Freedom Passes are not handed out easily. I
greatly appreciate mine, when I use it - and I believe that on those
occasions when I'm well enough to use a bus or train then I show little
or no obvious sign of any disability (at least not when I start my
journey).

A photocard has to match every Freedom Pass, although only by name. I
have never been asked to show both at once, but the terms make it clear
that both must 'be presented'.

"Ticket checking staff" are empowered to retain any photocard or pass,
its says on the back of the photocard, and on the back of the pass itself
the non-transferability is emphasised.

Presumably the ticket inspectors do check Freedom Passes along with all
other ticket types.

It would be interesting to know what the statistics are for fraudulent use
of Freedom Passes.

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Old April 28th 06, 07:50 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

Tristán White wrote...
But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question
them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body
and mind?

It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale!


Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or
are you just making assumptions?
--
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Old April 28th 06, 08:50 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked


Tristán White wrote:
snip


I am gobsmacked how I have never seen any of the young men challenged ONCE
over their card, which is blatantly in it's orange "Freedom Pass" wallet,
and which shows "F'DOM PASS" or something like that on the display when
swiped on the bus. I've been watching.


When all the old ladies get on the bus in front of me it says
"Travelcard Z1-6D" not "F'DOM PASS". Are you sure you have been
looking at the display?

The only pass that seems to make a funny noise is the kids travel free
pass.

Seen as everyone you are moaning about is a "young man", could you
possibly have confused their correctly owned kids travel free pass with
a freedom pass?

Or could the pass be the one given to all people who live with a bus
driver?


Just yesterday, a fit athletic-looking young man jumped onto the bus, did
not appear to have any learning difficulties


How do you know he didn't have learning difficulties? Not everyone
with learning difficulties is short, wears glasses, dribbles and is
confused! Dsylexia (spelt wrong, I am sure) counts as a learning
difficulty but has no visible signs

and certainly no physical
difficulties. He was listening to his iPod (so not deaf) and certainly
didn't appear to be blind - although his trousers were half-way down his
bum and his shoelaces were undone but that is apparently fashionable and
not a sign of being mentally challenged, or blind for that matter, although
it should be.

Another young athletic man in his late teens came on the bus a couple of
days ago.... Again, he was physically fit and appeared to be in all his
senses, although admittedly he was wearing a Manchester Utd baseball cap,
which may just have been a cunning disguise to make the bus driver think
that he was indeed possibly retarded. In which case, it worked.

What I want to know is, how come these things don't appear to be
challenged, but other things (eg showing out-of-date travelcard, PAYG out
of credit, 15 year old not having photocard, etc) do get checked.


Checking a freedom pass would be exaclty the same as checking someone
with an annual travelcard is the one using it (so making people touch
their pass on the reader, then show the photo to the driver). If the
drivers check these all the time it slows boarding and oyster was a
complete waste of time and money. So thats my theory why they don't
check freedom pass photos.

snip



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Old April 28th 06, 08:53 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked


Scooter wrote:
What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors.


Ermm drivers are behind a glass/perspex parition - conductors weren't.
So the driver would not get a smack round the face but a conductor
could do. Therefore your argument fails

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Old April 28th 06, 09:58 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Freedom passes unchecked


"Chris!" wrote in message oups.com...

Scooter wrote:
What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors.


Ermm drivers are behind a glass/perspex parition - conductors weren't.
So the driver would not get a smack round the face but a conductor
could do. Therefore your argument fails
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK then, let's have the driver behind a perspex screen & a conductor /stroke guard in full body armour to protect the passengers from being murdered on the tops of buses as happened in the Holloway Road recently when a poor man was stabbed to death after he told some filthy piece of scum to stop throwing chips at his girfriend.
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Old April 28th 06, 11:42 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

christine wrote in
:


were you near enough to the driver to see if the passengers showed
their photocard with their pass? Or just presuming because the driver
didn't ask they didn't show one


Yes, it was simply swiped through the plastic of the closed orange wallet.

Yesterday, the youth in question was in the queue in front of me, which is
how I saw it said "F'DOM PASS" or some such thing on the display.

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Old April 28th 06, 11:56 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

"Chris!" wrote in
oups.com:

When all the old ladies get on the bus in front of me it says
"Travelcard Z1-6D" not "F'DOM PASS". Are you sure you have been
looking at the display?


Yes. I swear that on Thursday it said F'DOM PASS" or something like
that. It stuck in my mind because I was surprised that the word FREEDOM
in full wouldn't have fitted.

The only pass that seems to make a funny noise is the kids travel

free
pass.

Seen as everyone you are moaning about is a "young man", could you
possibly have confused their correctly owned kids travel free pass
with a freedom pass?


No, this didn't make a funny noise, I was in the queue behind him on
Thursday, saw the Freedom Pass wallet and read the display.


Or could the pass be the one given to all people who live with a bus
driver?


No idea!



How do you know he didn't have learning difficulties? Not everyone
with learning difficulties is short, wears glasses, dribbles and is
confused! Dsylexia (spelt wrong, I am sure) counts as a learning
difficulty but has no visible signs


Oh, true. But surely having dyslexia is not enough to qualify you for
free travel on tubes and buses?

I mean, surely you have to have a disability that will impair your
ability to travel? Now I've got 11 years' experience working in a
charity that has involvement with learning and communication
difficulties, including dyslexia. I wouldn't have thought that dyslexia
would qualify.

I mean, if I sprained my ankle and had to be in crutches for the next
week, would I get a freedom pass for a week? No. But I would probably
deserve one (for that time, until my mobility is improved). Why should
someone with dyslexia qualify or drug addiction qualify for free tube
and bus travel. That would be crazy... the world upside-down.....

Checking a freedom pass would be exaclty the same as checking someone
with an annual travelcard is the one using it (so making people touch
their pass on the reader, then show the photo to the driver). If the
drivers check these all the time it slows boarding and oyster was a
complete waste of time and money. So thats my theory why they don't
check freedom pass photos.



I guess that's a good theory. Saving time. It's what every sector of the
community appears to be doing these days. My best mate's wife is
pregnant at the moment. He wanted to know the sex of his child but they
wouldn't tell him. He asked whether it had anything to do with something
he read about people from a certain ethnic group who favour male progeny
and may bring about an abortion if the child is found to be female (he
reads the Mail... he probably got that story from there).

In fact, the reason is nothing to do with that. It's because checking
the sex of the foetus takes an extra 15 minutes, so certain NHS trusts
no longer do these checks - even if there is time - because if they did
it for one, they'd do it for everyone, and 15 minutes for every scan
means there's not enough time in the day.

So as you see, it's happening in all walks of life these days.....
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Old April 28th 06, 11:58 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.local.london,uk.transport.buses
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Default Freedom passes unchecked

Martin Clark wrote in :

Tristán White wrote...
But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question
them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body
and mind?

It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale!


Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or
are you just making assumptions?




I didn't say fraud is happening on a massive scale with Freedom passes, but
overall of course it is - it's common knowledge - whether it's people
buying travelcards off touts, or not using the PAYG on the bendy-buses,
it's in the news and on the newsgroups all the time.


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