On May 3, 2:08 pm, asdf wrote:
On 30 Apr 2007 13:43:58 -0700, MIG wrote:





The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere?

He/she would see that you had touched in at Canary Wharf.

Would he/she be instructed to care?

An interesting question...

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one



Hmm, which raises another question. Would it be any different from
getting out and doing stuff at Island Gardens and then continuing to
Deptford Bridge (ie it looks like one journey in the same direction)?

On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

In message . com, Paul
Weaver writes
On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

I haven't seen any official documentation that says that it is PAYG
(glad to be corrected, etc). the NLL TfL concession is meant to be from
Day 1 and Silverlink is working with TfL towwards that. Whether it they
manage to meet that target is a different issue.

The most recent announcement I found was this:
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...e.aspx?id=1209

But the NLL won't be part of Silverlink Trains come November 2007.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

Tough luck, I suppose. You'd have to ask the gateline staff to let you
back out, then phone the Oyster helpline and see if they'll remove the
£4 charge.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

I don't think I can give an objective answer to that question. My
point was that if, *in the opinion of the particular ticket inspector*
at that particular time, you are committing fraud (by making a "Z1-6
journey" but only paying for a Z6 one), that's enough to get you your
Oyster confiscated, along with all your PAYG credit.

On 3 May 2007 12:31:14 -0700, MIG wrote:

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one

Hmm, which raises another question. Would it be any different from
getting out and doing stuff at Island Gardens and then continuing to
Deptford Bridge (ie it looks like one journey in the same direction)?

If the inspector on the second train sees you boarding at Island
Gardens, then possibly not...

Paul Weaver wrote:
On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

On May 4, 3:15 pm, asdf wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

That's for PAYG only, isn't it? i.e. if you have a valid Travelcard
the "defined via Z1" rule doesn't apply.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 1 May, 03:33, David of Broadway
wrote:
Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Most of the NLL still isn't on PAYG, and the only way to this journey
on routes that are is via Z1.

U

On Fri, 04 May 2007 15:15:02 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2007 00:40:54 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?

Yes.

I very, very much doubt it but I don't know exactly how the gates are
programmed to deal with this in validation terms. The example quoted
involves a Travelcard that is valid at both ends and where there is also
an entirely reasonable direct service that avoids Zone 1. I cannot see
how in that example that TfL could impose a deduction from the PAYG
element on an Oyster card when the passenger holds a valid Z26
travelcard. Clearly there is a "risk" here but it is no different to
prior to Oyster where there were three fares between Stratford or
Highbury to Richmond

1. All LU and zonally priced.
2. Direct via NLL and priced by the TOC.
3. Through LU and NR journey via Z1 terminals that would be a
summated fare.

None of these fares were interavailable and to use a ticket for any
option on the non valid routes would result in a Penalty Fare. The issue
is about detecting the use of such tickets on invalid routes.

There is no way of knowing which route someone took between those two
points unless they opted to travel via Waterloo or Vauxhall and caught
SWT on to Richmond.

From the TfL 2007 fares leaflet:

"Some journeys have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and
will be charged and capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken."

This applies for journeys undertaken entirely on PAYG.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!