The rules are a lot more complicated than you are trying to make out.
Have a read of the online Routeing Guide and it will make sense.
There is a fares rule, and there is a doubling-back rule, but neither
are as you state.

I'm sorry, this was a misunderstanding on my part. Let me explain the
situation fully:

DOUBLING BACK
Doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin
and
destination) is forbidden, but with three exceptions. Doubling back is
permitted if
1. an easement allows it
2. it is for the purpose of changing trains inside a routeing point
group
3. it occurs on map ZZ or in combination with map ZZ to reach a
station the sleeper
train does not stop at.

THE FARE-CHECK RULE
The fare-check rule is that a journey is allowed by an origin or
destination routeing point if the fare for the whole journey via that
routeing point is not less than the fare from the origin to the
destination routeing point and not less than the fare from the origin
routeing point to the destination.


To explain in more detail,
Paddington = London Group Routeing Point Member
Clapham Junction = Clapham Junction Routing Point

Permitted Routes:
LB: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20LB.jpg
LK: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20LK.jpg
PD: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20PD.jpg
SC: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20SC.jpg
WX: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...s/Map%20WX.jpg

None of these routes utilize Paddington Station, therefore travel from
any train leaving Paddington is not permitted. Therefore, the London
Underground must be used [1]. However, travel from Charing Cross,
Waterloo, Victoria, Canon Street, London Bridge or Any Thameslink is
permitted. As Reading is not a permitted routeing point, the Fare-
Check rule does not come into play.

[1] "Sometimes the Fares Manual will show an “Any permitted� fare but
without the via
London, Maltese cross âœ* symbol. Reference to Section C may show via
London to
be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via
London to
include cross-London transfer would be permitted."

Which explains why the ticket barriers opened. It doesn't however say
why they didn't open on the way back

Theres a half hourly service to Sutton from Kx Thameslink via Tulse Hill so
what about

Potters Bar-KX-Tlk-Tulse Hill-Mitcham Jct-Sutton-Epsom

Connections at Sutton are pretty good.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:51:01 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:

I'll leave it to someone else to try doing a break of journey in
Reading with that ticket!

Sounds like a challenge. Any Barriers at Reading?

Yes. Thousands of 'em.

CORE [1] also thinks this (Paddington to Reading via Slough, Reading to
Clapham Junction via Staines) is the shortest route, and puts it at 75:27
miles.

Presumably only if you tell it not to count walks or cross-London
transfers as part of the shortest route.

Correct, sorry, i should have mentioned that.

Besides, even then, it's not the shortest route from London Terminals to
Clapham Junction (which is what's actually printed on the ticket).

Also true. Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction then!

However, as U pointed out (in a post which i have now deleted, which is
why i'm not replying to it), NR apparently allow tube transfers as part of
a route, with length zero, so the London box should have been ticked, and
even from Acton Main Line, you take the tube. I guess they just think of
all London Terminals as being one big station! I get the impression it
doesn't explicitly lay this out in the guide, though, which is
interesting. Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it?

tom

--
Come on thunder; come on thunder.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL wrote:

The rules are a lot more complicated than you are trying to make out.

I'm sorry, this was a misunderstanding on my part. Let me explain the
situation fully:

DOUBLING BACK
Doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and
destination) is forbidden, but with three exceptions. Doubling back is
permitted if
1. an easement allows it
2. it is for the purpose of changing trains inside a routeing point
group
3. it occurs on map ZZ or in combination with map ZZ to reach a station
the sleeper train does not stop at.

THE FARE-CHECK RULE
The fare-check rule is that a journey is allowed by an origin or
destination routeing point if the fare for the whole journey via that
routeing point is not less than the fare from the origin to the
destination routeing point and not less than the fare from the origin
routeing point to the destination.

Unless, presumably, the destination routeing point is in knip?

tom

--
Come on thunder; come on thunder.

On Jul 12, 11:50 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
Also true. Acton Main Line to Clapham Junction then!

I have a better one - Hayes & Harlington to Feltham via Reading.
London-Reading semi-fasts stop at both, so it's a useful route to
Reading if you have an all zones Travelcard and aren't in a hurry.
Routeing points Slough and Staines pass the fares rule, and Reading is
a mapped route between them (WR+WX), and Any Permitted route tickets
are available. Journey Planner doesn't like it, though.

Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it?

National Rail guy said it's the London Group that implies it.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/

In message . com, at
13:30:55 on Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL remarked:
There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the
train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a
ticket to the destination station.

So does that mean that a London-Newark ticket is not in fact valid via
Nottingham?

London-Newark ~£52 RG gives CS+MM, ER
London-Nottingham ~£62

When the only way to Newark on map CS+MM is via Nottingham.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
13:30:55 on Wed, 11 Jul 2007, JL remarked:
There's a rule which says that you cannot pass any station (where the
train stops) which buying a ticket to would cost more than buying a
ticket to the destination station.

So does that mean that a London-Newark ticket is not in fact valid via
Nottingham?

It doesn't, because the rule does not exist as described.
--
Michael Hoffman

JL writes:

None of these routes utilize Paddington Station, therefore travel from
any train leaving Paddington is not permitted. Therefore, the London
Underground must be used [1]. However, travel from Charing Cross,
Waterloo, Victoria, Canon Street, London Bridge or Any Thameslink is
permitted. As Reading is not a permitted routeing point, the Fare-
Check rule does not come into play.

However, travel from Paddington to Clapham Jn via Reading and either
Basingstoke or Staines would be allowed on a Basingstoke (and probably
other stations on the SWT main line) to London Stations season, as
travel Basingstoke-Reading-Paddington and
Basingstoke-Reading-Staines-Clapham Jn are permitted routes. Season
tickets allow unlimited travel between intermediate stations on all
permitted routes.

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...


However, as U pointed out (in a post which i have now deleted, which is
why i'm not replying to it), NR apparently allow tube transfers as part of
a route, with length zero, so the London box should have been ticked, and
even from Acton Main Line, you take the tube. I guess they just think of
all London Terminals as being one big station! I get the impression it
doesn't explicitly lay this out in the guide, though, which is
interesting. Or does the existence of the London routeing point imply it?


I don't think the NR fares manual supports your view about 'London
Terminals' being a hypothetical one big station, though, unless you are
actually crossing London. This is how it reads on page A4:

"Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are shown in
Section B and are valid at the following London Stations
subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken, but
do NOT include travel between these stations on London
Underground, Docklands Light Railway or London Buses."

[no point copying the list of stations...]

That 3rd line 'subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken'
seems a bit vague but must imply the routeing guide?

The current (May 07) NR London connections map has a couple of new notes on
fares within the travelcard areas, since the advent of zonal fares, I won't
repeat them, but they are a bit different to last years...

Paul

On Jul 15, 12:24 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
I don't think the NR fares manual supports your view about 'London
Terminals' being a hypothetical one big station, though, unless you are
actually crossing London.

His comment was Acton Mainline to Clapham Junction, so when he
said "London Terminals" I don't think he meant to invoke the ticket
destination.

That 3rd line 'subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken'
seems a bit vague but must imply the routeing guide?

Presumably that's a reference to going to the obvious terminal(s) for
your starting point, using either the shortest route rule or the maps.
The maps for Clapham Junction to London appear to allow Victoria,
Vauxhall and Waterloo direct; then Charing Cross and London Bridge via
Waterloo; and Cannon Street, City Thameslink and Blackfriars via
Waterloo and LB.

Or if we're going all Clive Feather, CJ to LB is permitted via Tulse
Hill, or Croydon, or Croydon and Bromley, or Streatham, Epsom and
Croydon, and so on. The Journey Planner will accept via Croydon but
not Epsom.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/