Tom Anderson wrote:

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line
was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say,
1965?

There was a book called the 'northern line extensions' published in 1981
by the London Underground Railway Society showing the planned expansion
from Finsbury Park to Stroud Green and Crouch End. It deals with the
early plans and has photographs of Drayton Park in Tube owneship and as
relaid for BR.

It was originally part of an ambitious plan involving the 1938 tube
stock interrupted by the war and ultimately never to see fruition even
though signs and tunnels and stations were built.

You would also have been able to travel from Alexandra Palace Via
Finsbury Park to Moorgate. and out as far as Bushey Heath.

The book says "When the 1938 stock was ordered a number of cars were
designated as owned by L.N.E.R these being that companys share of
operating the service to High Barnet and Edgware via Finchley. Each of
these cars carried a plate "Property of L.N.E.R" which remained in place
until refurbishment for the Bakerloo, or scrap circa 1973

There is a fiar amount of detail in this particular pamphlet about the
1938 stock but heres a pertinent paragraph (slightly compressed) talking
about its introduction:

"The Northern Line would be operated totally by 1938 stock. The Bakerloo
would continue with Pre-1938 stock but would have eight new trains. The
Northern City Line (Moorgate to Alexandra Palace) would be operated by
both pre-1938 and 1938 stock. So that extra trains could be made up 1927
trailers were reserved for the Northern City Line but in any event went
to Bakerloo by 1941. The central line would be wholly operated by ex
nothern line pre-1938 stock, and in consequence there was a lot of spare
pre-1938 stock stored in sidings and depots."

mysteryflyer.

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...


I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park; it originally terminated in underground platforms at
Finsbury Park (having been planned to go further and then wrecked by
corporate politics, as i'm sure we all know),

Surely WW2 and a complete lack of money, rather than corporate politics?

Paul

On 21 Sep, 08:59, MIG wrote:
This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park makes it
almost completely useless! How long did that situation last? Crumbs -
according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only have been useful as a
local service from Essex Road, Highbury & Islington and Drayton Park into
the City, and for people coming on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or
Blackhorse Road (the other stations have direct connections to Liverpool
Street anyway). Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of
demand, i would guess low enough that people would be better off taking
either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead.

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line was
plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say, 1965?

Well, the thing is that there were empty stock movements between
Drayton Park and Highgate via Finsbury Park, Crouch End etc till 1970
or so, so I'd think the link was there (this off the top of my head).

AIUI, there was always a single-track, single-lead link for ECS/depot
usage, but the remodelling to create the current set of flyovers only
happened as part of the King's Cross suburban electrification
programme, with the civils work taking place from c1974 onwards.

I guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky)
that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster,
since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish
people rather than its design capacity of 800ish...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 21 Sep, 01:43, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, MIG wrote:
On Sep 20, 3:37 pm, MIG wrote:

On Sep 20, 8:07 pm, "
wrote:

What lines did this stock run on ?

At various times, Northern, Piccadilly, Bakerloo and East London Line.
Also, refurbished coaches on bits of the Central.

The last line it ran on as part of a large everyday fleet was the
Bakerloo, although I think a few trains ran more recently on the
Northern to cover for shortages or something.

I forgot to mention that they would also have been running from Moorgate
to Drayton Park in 1966, on what is now part of First Capital Connect.

As seen on the strip map in this photo from the tour:

http://flickr.com/photos/nuttyxander/1396357082/

Bigger he

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...86b55a4e_o.jpg

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park; it originally terminated in underground platforms at
Finsbury Park (having been planned to go further and then wrecked by
corporate politics, as i'm sure we all know), and those were taken over by
the construction of the Victoria line, but i assumed the line was
re-plumbed into the GN mainline at the same time. I infer that that
happened later on.

Correct.


This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park makes it
almost completely useless! How long did that situation last? Crumbs -
according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only have been useful as a
local service from Essex Road, Highbury & Islington and Drayton Park into
the City, and for people coming on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or
Blackhorse Road (the other stations have direct connections to Liverpool
Street anyway). Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of
demand, i would guess low enough that people would be better off taking
either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead.

I've no idea how well loaded the Northern City line was when it was
evicted from Finsbury Park and just ran Drayton Park to Moorgate.
However I do remember reading a fairly detailed account of the
Moorgate crash in 1975 which happened in the morning rush-hour, and it
certainly gave the impression that the line was well used.

Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers
who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington
southwards when the Victoria line opened from Walthamstow Central to
High & I in 1968 - I'd suggest the number of pax reaching it via this
interchange may well have been substational.


Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line was
plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say, 1965?


The link from the NLL to the GN - the Canonbury Curve - has existed
since 1875.
See http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html

It carried a number of suburban trains from the GN down to Broad
Street via the Canonbury Curve (between Finsbury Park and Canonbury)
then down via the closed line (though shortly to be mostly reopened as
part of the ELLX) from Dalston Junction to Broad Street. Some diesel
trains continued on this route until the 1976 GN electrification, from
whence customers could of course use direct GN trains that were routed
through the Northern City tunnels to Moorgate (a stone's throw from
Broad Street).

I understand that the Canonbury Curve was singled at the time of
electrification because the OHLE for two lines wouldn't have fitted in
the tunnel on the curve otherwise, not without major work at least.

Before the 1976 changes, there was nonetheless a single line link
between the LU depot at Drayton Park (adjacent to the station) and the
GN line at Finsbury Park, and this was used for LU rolling stock
transfers.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park; it originally terminated in underground platforms at
Finsbury Park (having been planned to go further and then wrecked by
corporate politics, as i'm sure we all know),

Surely WW2 and a complete lack of money, rather than corporate politics?

Since the line was opened in 1904, this seems unlikely.

Clive tells all:

http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.html#GNCR

You're getting confused between the GN&CR's plan to link the line to the
GNR, which was blocked by the GNR before the line was event built, and
LU's plan to link the line to the Edgware, Highgate & London Railway (part
of the infamous Northern Heights scheme), which was indeed nobbled by WW2.

It's poetic that the fate that was finally delivered is exactly the one
originally planned. Shame that it took 71 years to be delivered!

tom

--
All we need now is Jesus the Lord, fine corn liquor and the courage to
think the unthinkable.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, John B wrote:

On 21 Sep, 08:59, MIG wrote:

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line
was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in,
say, 1965?

Well, the thing is that there were empty stock movements between
Drayton Park and Highgate via Finsbury Park, Crouch End etc till 1970
or so, so I'd think the link was there (this off the top of my head).

AIUI, there was always a single-track, single-lead link for ECS/depot
usage, but the remodelling to create the current set of flyovers only
happened as part of the King's Cross suburban electrification programme,
with the civils work taking place from c1974 onwards.

Aha. Any idea if the Canonbury Curve existed at that time?

tom

--
All we need now is Jesus the Lord, fine corn liquor and the courage to
think the unthinkable.

On 21 Sep, 10:43, John B wrote:
On 21 Sep, 08:59, MIG wrote:



This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park makes it
almost completely useless! How long did that situation last? Crumbs -
according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only have been useful as a
local service from Essex Road, Highbury & Islington and Drayton Park into
the City, and for people coming on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or
Blackhorse Road (the other stations have direct connections to Liverpool
Street anyway). Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of
demand, i would guess low enough that people would be better off taking
either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead.

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line was
plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say, 1965?

Well, the thing is that there were empty stock movements between
Drayton Park and Highgate via Finsbury Park, Crouch End etc till 1970
or so, so I'd think the link was there (this off the top of my head).

AIUI, there was always a single-track, single-lead link for ECS/depot
usage, but the remodelling to create the current set of flyovers only
happened as part of the King's Cross suburban electrification
programme, with the civils work taking place from c1974 onwards.

Just to be clear - I think part of Tom's question actually related to
the Canonbury Curve line from the NLL to the GN. This was a double
line until the 1976 GN electrification scheme , and apparently hosted
diesel services from the GN to Broad Street up until that time (I
can't say that the dates are precise - things may have changed a bit
before '76).

This Canonbury Curve line was used until fairly recently for 'one'
railway ECS moves between the Hornsey depot and Hackney Downs/
Liverpool Street (via the NLL and new-ish Graham Road curve).

But nonetheless thanks for the confirmation of the LU Drayton Park
depot to GN single-lead link.

One thing I've never been able to locate is exactly where are the
blocked off tunnel portals north of Drayton Park are, i.e. the start
of the disused tunnels that lead up to Finsbury Park.

There is an interesting account of a visit down there on the Abandoned
Stations website...
http://www.pendar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tube/
Drayton_Park_station.html
....which speaks of "passing through the single steel gate entrance" to
gain access to the tunnels, but I've never been able to pin down where
this entrance is, and indeed it's unclear whether that is just the
entrance to one of the running tunnels or to both.


I guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky)
that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster,
since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish
people rather than its design capacity of 800ish...


Thanks for that. I have read a fairly horrendous account of the
Moorgate disaster, yet if the train had been fully loaded it sounds
like it could have been even worse.

I have just found a webpage regarding the Moorgate disaster he
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvolvz

Th quoted death toll on that page is 42, which conflicts with the BBC
'On This Day' article which gives the toll as 43 (maybe the difference
is whether the driver was counted as not, as he may have committed
suicide though no-one can know what really happened). The webpage on
the disaster also says there were "more than seventy badly injured, of
whom some subsequently died as a result of their injuries."

BBC On This Day article:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/354bb

On 21 Sep, 12:17, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, John B wrote:
On 21 Sep, 08:59, MIG wrote:

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line
was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in,
say, 1965?

Well, the thing is that there were empty stock movements between
Drayton Park and Highgate via Finsbury Park, Crouch End etc till 1970
or so, so I'd think the link was there (this off the top of my head).

AIUI, there was always a single-track, single-lead link for ECS/depot
usage, but the remodelling to create the current set of flyovers only
happened as part of the King's Cross suburban electrification programme,
with the civils work taking place from c1974 onwards.

Aha. Any idea if the Canonbury Curve existed at that time?


The Canonbury Curve opened in 1875:
http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park; it originally terminated in underground platforms at
Finsbury Park (having been planned to go further and then wrecked by
corporate politics, as i'm sure we all know),

Surely WW2 and a complete lack of money, rather than corporate politics?

Since the line was opened in 1904, this seems unlikely.

Clive tells all:

http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.html#GNCR

You're getting confused between the GN&CR's plan to link the line to the
GNR, which was blocked by the GNR before the line was event built, and
LU's plan to link the line to the Edgware, Highgate & London Railway (part
of the infamous Northern Heights scheme), which was indeed nobbled by WW2.

You're right - I was indeed thinking of the latter...

Paul

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran
to Drayton Park; it originally terminated in underground platforms
at Finsbury Park (having been planned to go further and then
wrecked by corporate politics, as i'm sure we all know), and those
were taken over by the construction of the Victoria line, but i
assumed the line was re-plumbed into the GN mainline at the same
time. I infer that that happened later on.

Er, you've answered your own question!

This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park
makes it almost completely useless! How long did that situation
last? Crumbs - according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only
have been useful as a local service from Essex Road, Highbury &
Islington and Drayton Park into the City, and for people coming on
the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or Blackhorse Road (the other
stations have direct connections to Liverpool Street anyway).
Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of demand, i
would guess low enough that people would be better off taking
either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead.

The service, even when it ran to Finsbury Park when I first knew it, was
very lightly loaded off-peak. It used "Standard" stock, including the
last control trailers. The off-peak service was run by two-car (Motor
plus Control Trailer) trains, augmented in the peak to 6 cars by adding
CT-T-T-M. The depot was at Drayton Park (you can see the site next to the
station). Because it was the last line to use Standard stock much of it
found its way to the Isle of Wight, explaining why the Island had so many
control trailers.

The truncated service was running when I and friends did the Underground
trip in 1970. It was quite a pain to visit Drayton Park and Essex Road
stations. The others, being interchanges, didn't need their own visits.
We had to double back at both Drayton Park and Essex Road from Highbury
and Islington. In those days Essex Road had little or no public
electricity supply and the platform lights were fed direct from the
traction supply. This meant that the lights noticeably dimmed when a
train started. Most passengers wouldn't have noticed but we did while
waiting for the train in the opposite direction.

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate
line was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look
like in, say, 1965?

The pre-war Northern Heights scheme would have projected the Northern
City via surface platforms at Finsbury Park (adjacent to platform 1) and
then using the now demolished flyover across the GN main line to Highgate.
Some work was done at Drayton Park to provide a connection which allowed
access to Drayton Park from Highgate and vice-versa until 1970. It had to
be re-done to create the present direct route from the platforms between
1971 and 1976, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel