On 24 Sep, 13:22, Mr Thant
wrote:
All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on
board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come
from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off
buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route?

With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route
from the north end of the Victoria into the City, and changing to the
Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the Piccadilly and
KX-bound suburbans.

But the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the city
would have been from Walthamstow, Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale to
Liverpool Street.

Thinking about it, I suspect you're right that the double-x-platform
change from the Piccadilly would have accounted for most of the GN&C's
traffic.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though,
from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!).

Those are via the Canonbury Curve to Broad St, not the GN&CR, although
I've no idea how good the Canonbury Curve's connection to the GN was at
the time.

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury
Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then
take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on
the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR
movement.

All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on
board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come
from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses?
Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route?

With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route
from the north end of the Victoria into the City,

Better than a direct train? Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven
Sisters are all on branches of what we now call the West Anglia line,
along which trains run directly to Liverpool Street.

and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the
Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans.

I hadn't thought of the Piccadilly. Picc to Vic to GN&CR is two changes,
but they're both cross-platform, and the Vic is frequent, so this would
indeed be a good route. Even though there were direct trains to Broad
Street from Finsbury Park high level, it might have been more convenient
to take the indirect Vic - GN&CR route. Given that that route's a roughly
straight line, whereas the Broad Street trains go via Dalston, it might
even have been quicker

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as
MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve
at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines, so for anyone on
those, no changes were necessary. For those not on those trains, going all
the way to KX and taking the Northern or Metropolitan lines into the City
would have been easier and maybe even quicker than the Vic - GN&CR route.
If they were insistent on changing at FP, then even a Broad Street train
would be a quicker and easier change, being at the same level (possibly
even same-platform, depending on how the platforms were wired).

Changing onto a City-bound tube line at KX would also have been an option
for people coming in on the Picc. It's not as direct, but it's one less
change. I imagine it would have been a competitive route.

tom

--
You may laugh. But me, I feel the chill wind of futurity down my
spine... -- Mr Snips

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article om,
(MIG) wrote:

The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather
than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only
UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed.

Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the
remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment.

9 cars? What? Where? When? How?

Read any good book on Northern Line history. The 1938 stock book I quoted
from last night described the experiment as "something that seemed like a
good idea at the time" with the implication that the author thought they
were stark staring bonkers to have tried it! It made more sense with
Standard stock which wasted a lot of passenger space on control equipment
compartments but the complications introduced made the idea unreasonable
for 1938TS.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto
the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at
Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're
never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN
mainline - GN&CR movement.

When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the
GNCR was not there.

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it.
Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still
took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened
Lines

Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was
/from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16.
--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto
the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at
Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're
never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN
mainline - GN&CR movement.

When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the
GNCR was not there.

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it.
Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still
took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened
Lines

Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was
/from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16.

Platform 14 if you are being exact...

Paul

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto
the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at
Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're
never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN
mainline - GN&CR movement.

When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the
GNCR was not there.

So where did trains go north of the curve?

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it.
Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still
took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened
Lines

Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was
/from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16.

Ah, my apologies.

tom

--
Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs - formal logical proofs
that particular computations are possible, expressed in a formal system
called a programming language - are utterly meaningless. To write a
computer program you have to come to terms with this, to accept that
whatever you might want the program to mean, the machine will blindly
follow its meaningless rules and come to some meaningless conclusion. --
Dehnadi and Bornat

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto
the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at
Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're
never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN
mainline - GN&CR movement.

When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to
the
GNCR was not there.

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it.
Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still
took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the
Widened
Lines

Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve
was
/from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16.

Platform 14 if you are being exact...

Wikipedia says 16... but of course the platforms have subsequently
been renumbered to eliminate the previous gaps (3 & 9 didn't exist
when I first used Kings Cross.)

In article ,
(John Salmon) wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto
the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at
Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're
never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN
mainline - GN&CR movement.

When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to
the GNCR was not there.

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it.
Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still
took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the
Widened Lines

Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve
was
/from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16.

Platform 14 if you are being exact...

Wikipedia says 16... but of course the platforms have subsequently
been renumbered to eliminate the previous gaps (3 & 9 didn't exist
when I first used Kings Cross.)

Perzackerly.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sep 24, 2:47 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though,
from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!).

Those are via the Canonbury Curve to Broad St, not the GN&CR, although
I've no idea how good the Canonbury Curve's connection to the GN was at
the time.

The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury
Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then
take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction.

You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on
the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR
movement.

All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on
board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come
from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses?
Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route?

With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route
from the north end of the Victoria into the City,

Better than a direct train? Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven
Sisters are all on branches of what we now call the West Anglia line,
along which trains run directly to Liverpool Street.

and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the
Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans.

I hadn't thought of the Piccadilly. Picc to Vic to GN&CR is two changes,
but they're both cross-platform, and the Vic is frequent, so this would
indeed be a good route. Even though there were direct trains to Broad
Street from Finsbury Park high level, it might have been more convenient
to take the indirect Vic - GN&CR route. Given that that route's a roughly
straight line, whereas the Broad Street trains go via Dalston, it might
even have been quicker

For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as
MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve
at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines, so for anyone on
those, no changes were necessary.



I don't think it was me, but I don't being associated with correct
assertions (occasionally).

One point that I think is important though is that Walthamstow
Central wouldn't exactly have had a turn-up-and-go service, even in
the peaks, so a frequent service with a cross-platform interchange (or
two) might have been appealing, particularly for people working nearer
to Moorgate or Old Street.

Personally, my decision would have been influenced by likelihood of
getting a seat, at least part of the way, and again starting at
Walthamstow Central on the Victoria might have made that more likely.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article om,
(MIG) wrote:

The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather
than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only
UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed.

Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the
remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment.

9 cars? What? Where? When? How?

Read any good book on Northern Line history.

If i ever lay my hands on one, i will. All i can glean from the web is
that some of the later platforms were built to 9-car length, and there was
a plan to run trains with 9 cars, with SDO (or whatever it was back then -
a guard with a key, probably) keeping the rear two cars out of use in the
7-car older sections. I don't know which stations were built for 9 cars -
i'm guessing the 1920s extensions, ie everything north of Golders Green
and Highgate, and south of Clapham Common. I also don't know if the two
rear cars would have been emptied before going into the 7-car section; i
certainly hope so.

The 1938 stock book I quoted from last night described the experiment as
"something that seemed like a good idea at the time" with the
implication that the author thought they were stark staring bonkers to
have tried it!

Ha! Sounds about right. Surely hardly any of the central network would
have been 9-car, so where did they think the passengers in those rear two
cars would be going?

tom

--
Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs - formal logical proofs
that particular computations are possible, expressed in a formal system
called a programming language - are utterly meaningless. To write a
computer program you have to come to terms with this, to accept that
whatever you might want the program to mean, the machine will blindly
follow its meaningless rules and come to some meaningless conclusion. --
Dehnadi and Bornat