In article , Alistair Gunn
writes
Maybe he should've taken the advice of a (IIRC) New Zealand Chief
Constable who said if you had to shoot someone who broke into your house
the very next thing you should do was fire a shot into the ceiling/floor
so you can claim you fired a warning shot ...

Of course, in certain US states I believe you don't want to fire a warning
shot as legally that is taken to show that you where not out of options
short of lethal force.

And in many US states they advise that should you shoot a burglar make
sure his body is found *inside* rather than outside the house.
--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.

"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
In uk.railway Richard twisted the electrons to say:
If he had fired anywhere other than straight along at body height (as
anyone who has ever picked up a gun knows is incredibly dangerous) he
would probably have got away with it.

Maybe he should've taken the advice of a (IIRC) New Zealand Chief
Constable who said if you had to shoot someone who broke into your house
the very next thing you should do was fire a shot into the ceiling/floor
so you can claim you fired a warning shot ...

Of course, in certain US states I believe you don't want to fire a warning
shot as legally that is taken to show that you where not out of options
short of lethal force.

He didn't, he shot two people in the back, killing one of them.

Well at least one of them won't be repeat offending then, and maybe the
other one will think twice before "breaking & entering" again ... Yeah,
unlikely I know ... :-(

One of the things I find interesting about this tragic case is that, while a
lot of Martin's supporters, and Martin himself apparently, seem to want a
return to 'Victorian Values'((C) the Conservative and Unionist Party), I
would have thought that in Victorian days Martin would have had his neck
stretched for shooting an unarmed teenager who was trying to get away at the
time. Not that I agree this would have been a good thing, but I suppose this
too would have prevented reoffense by the man, who is clearly a loon of the
first order.

John

In article , John
Mullen writes
One of the things I find interesting about this tragic case is that, while a
lot of Martin's supporters, and Martin himself apparently, seem to want a
return to 'Victorian Values'((C) the Conservative and Unionist Party), I
would have thought that in Victorian days Martin would have had his neck
stretched for shooting an unarmed teenager who was trying to get away at the
time.

It's always possible that with different law enforcement values, the
teenager (who was an admitted burglar) would have been taken out of
circulation earlier, and not been in a position to engage in his
activities that night, and so would never have been shot at.

--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.

"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
In uk.railway John Mullen twisted the electrons to say:
One of the things I find interesting about this tragic case

As far as i can tell it's rather

For crying out loud folks, choose somewhere rather more appropriate to take
this to!! These two groups are sure enough NOT the place.

FU: alt.dev.null

"Thames Ranger" wrote in message
...
"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
In uk.railway John Mullen twisted the electrons to say:
One of the things I find interesting about this tragic case

As far as i can tell it's rather

For crying out loud folks, choose somewhere rather more appropriate
to take
this to!! These two groups are sure enough NOT the place.

It's thread drift and, in line with Usenet convention the thread has
even been renamed. Live with it or, if you don't like, it just set
your newsreader to ignore the thread.

In message ,
Thames Ranger writes
"Stimpy" wrote in message
...
"Thames Ranger" wrote in message
...

It's thread drift and, in line with Usenet convention the thread has
even been renamed. Live with it or, if you don't like, it just set
your newsreader to ignore the thread.

Great excuse for something that has no relevence to either group. Not.

Well, that is what usually happens. Welcome to Usenet! :-)

Thread drift is fine when it still has *some tenuous link* to the group at
the very least. The actions of Tony Martin have feck all to do with anything
in either group.

That's debatable. After all the right of people (or entities) to defend
their own property from people who break and enter in order to commit
crimes of theft or vandalism *is* something of relevance to the
railways.

Personally my sympathies lie entirely with Mr Martin. As I understand
it he fired downwards intending to injure one burglar in the legs, with
no knowledge that the other was crouching there. People who break into
other people's houses (or factories, locosheds, etc) with criminal
intent deserve all they get, and the law should be on the side of the
burgled, not the burglar.

--
- Jack Howard, Systems Development Engineer, Firstnet Services Limited
===[ http://www.firstnet.net.uk --- Total Internet Solutions ]===

===[ This message subject to http://www.firstnet.net.uk/disclaimer.html ]===

Personally my sympathies lie entirely with Mr Martin. As I understand
it he fired downwards intending to injure one burglar in the legs, with
no knowledge that the other was crouching there. People who break into
other people's houses (or factories, locosheds, etc) with criminal
intent deserve all they get, and the law should be on the side of the
burgled, not the burglar.

While it seems nice on the surface, the Daily Mail answer to crime is a
dangerous one.

At the moment we have a system where after committing on average about 10
burglaries, the person is bundled before the courts and receives a
punishment, usually of a hundred or so hours unpaid work first time round,
custodial later on. The punishment is not currently death.

Anyone using force is required to show that it was reasonable in the
circumstances - e.g. if Tony Martin had been threatened with a knife, firing
a lethal weapon in their direction might have been reasonable.

If you move to a system where minor crimes are subject to unlimited
punishment, things quickly escalate.

E.g. domestic argument, visitor pushes householder, householder responds
with murder?
E.g. ambulance called to house, paramedics killed by 'anti-burglar' measures
or over-enthusiastic neighbour
E.g. person lost and trespasses on land, shot as a 'possible burglar'
E.g. police able to use unlimited force without checks, easily exploitable
by corrupt officers
E.g. person able to kill and pretend they were defending their own property
at the time

This kind of disproportionate reaction is justified only in very rare
circumstances, e.g. by the government in protecting order, and you can see
the dangers of its introduction, for example, by looking at the effects of
its use in Northern Ireland.

Tony Martin belongs in one place until the end of a typical murder sentence,
and that is prison.

Richard

Richard wrote:

This kind of disproportionate reaction is justified only in
very rare circumstances, e.g. by the government in
protecting order, and you can see the dangers of its
introduction, for example, by looking at the effects of its
use in Northern Ireland.

Tony Martin belongs in one place until the end of a typical
murder sentence, and that is prison.

I wonder if people who spout this mantra would behave any differently if
they were in Tony Martin's situation or were actually taking note of the
whole situation.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:51:20 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote:

"Thames Ranger" wrote in message
...
"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
In uk.railway John Mullen twisted the electrons to say:
One of the things I find interesting about this tragic case

As far as i can tell it's rather

For crying out loud folks, choose somewhere rather more appropriate
to take
this to!! These two groups are sure enough NOT the place.

It's thread drift and, in line with Usenet convention the thread has
even been renamed. Live with it or, if you don't like, it just set
your newsreader to ignore the thread.

What convention? No Charter or FAQ I've ever read has sanctioned this.


Cheers,

Jason.

"Thames Ranger" wrote in message ...
"Richard" wrote in message
...

If Tony Martin had been attacked by these people he would have got away
with
it.

snip

Take it somewhere more relevent, please. This is uk.railway and
uk.transport.london, not uk.letsdiscusstonymartin, no matter how interesting
the debate. I'll leave you to choose a more appropriate group!

FU: alt.dev.null

You think you are big because you wrote that.