On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:06:47 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

I can say with some authority that despite PAYG not yet being valid on
the NLL at the time the Tfl Fares finder was right and that's what you
would have been charged. Back in February or March of this year (I
forget exactly when) I made a Highbury & Islington to Queen's Park
journey via Victoria and Bakerloo lines changing at Oxford Circus. I
had already reached my zone 1&2 daily cap so was totally bemused when
an extra 60p was deducted from my balance - i.e. my cap was now at the
zones 1-4 level of £5.20 rather than £4.60, despite the fact I hadn't
been in zone 3 - indeed, there was no valid route from H&I to QP
through zone 3.

Later on the penny dropped that the Oyster PAYG database had already
been updated to take account of PAYG on the NLL, either it was being
tested or perhaps there was something to the talk that PAYG might go
live whilst the line was still under Silverlink control.

I maintain that it was defined as a Z23 journey (rather than a Z12
journey) so that holders of Z23 Travelcard seasons on Oyster making
this journey using the NLL would not get charged an extension fare.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:57:00 GMT, ccpf wrote:

So, the system can make different charges depending on which direction
you travel. It just doesn't make sense to me. And apart from the
directional assymetry, £2 simply can't be a correct charge from a Zone 2
station to a Zone 3 - it should be either £1 or £2.50. I can't believe
the anomaly is intentional, and I wonder if they're aware of it.

Makes sense to me - it's a perfectly sensible way of keeping the
fare-charging logic simple. It would be hugely more complicated, for
very little gain, if each pair of stations had to have separate fares
associated with it depending on whether you pass through any of (and
possibly a combination of) the out-of-station interchanges on the
network and/or touch any of the platform validators.

IIRC it actually used to be the case that the system *would* refund
you money at the final touch-out (someone posted here that they'd
tried it), so the no-refund rule must have been added fairly recently.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:

But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

On 11 Nov, 22:22, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:
Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work.

It remains a bit of a shame tha****fordJunctionisn't going to become
part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A),
especially given the fact the Met'sWatfordstation is in the same town,
albeit 15 (?) mins walk away fromWatfordJn. But quite predictable
nonetheless.

I wonder how this would interact with the Croxley Link.WatfordJunction
and High Street becoming dual-zone 7M/8W? 8M/8W?

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

The new 2008 map has gone up on the ticket machines in Harrow and
Wealdstone. Carpenders park moves to zone 7, Bushey and Watford High
Street to zone 8. But Watford Junction still stays out altogether with
the 'Special Fares Apply' box. Looks like LM fighting to keep control
over travelcard prices in one of their busiest stations.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:07:53 -0800, wrote:


The development of Docklands in the eighties & nineties was a step in
the right direction, but why hasn't it been followed up with similar
projects in South, West and North London?

Two answers to this. One is that in Docklands there was a huge amount
of formerly industrial land vacated when the docks moved to Tilbury
from around 1960 onwards, which was redeveloped for residential and
office use. There's nothing comparable elsewhere in London, so you
wouldn't see a project on a similar scale south, west, or north of
London. The other answer is that there has been significant
gentrification of areas relatively close into London - eg Islington,
parts of Battersea, and so on - in recent decades, whereas in the
first half of the twentieth century people moved into suburbs as they
became more affluent.

Possibly partly because the
current transport system and zonal structure is based on the "everyone
travels to-from central London" model, and it reinforces that concept
among travellers.

Interesting idea, but I'm not convinced. One reason is that the zonal
system of fares was only introduced during the early 1980s and, if
anything, the period since then is when there've been more people
moving into the zones closer to the centre

Martin

On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin
numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find
that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select
tickets for particular journeys.

I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day
Travelcard" and that is it.

Tim.

On Nov 14, 12:08 am, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
You can use PAYG on a Southern train to Harrow, wait 7-ish minutes
then jump on a following London Midland train to Euston. I suspect
many people will decide that "a train is a train" or won't recognise
the difference anyway, resulting in journeys being attempted all the
way on the main line Euston trains.

I don't tend to venture out to Watford Junction much, but just how are
passengers supposed to tell at a glance which are and aren't the valid
trains? Many TOCs seem to have numerous liveries in use due to stock not
having been repainted or a change of mind mid franchise and so forth. And a
lot of announcements don't give the TOC. So how will the passenger at
Watford Junction who knows they can use PAYG "on trains" or "on overground"
(meaning "national rail") know which train to Harrow & Wealdstone is and
isn't valid?
This morning I was on a train that only stops at Bushey. We came into
platform 12 which doesn't seem to have oyster readers that I could
see. So anybody trying to use oyster on that train will have an
unresolved journey. Although, given that the PAYG fare is 5.50 at that
time and an unresolved journey is (I think) 5.00, I suspect it might
become a very popular train ;-)

Tim.

On 14 Nov, 08:47, " wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:32 am, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:13:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall wrote:
But I can use a ODTC from Watford Junction. I can't use PAYG unless I
limit myself to the slow train to Euston.

At this point in time I'm not asking for anything more than the ability
to put the ticket I would buy anyway onto my PAYG oyster rather than
having a separate paper ticket. I'd like that when people come to visit
and we go into London, I could have some spare PAYG oyster cards that I
could give them that could then quickly have a ODTC put onto them.
Instead we have to leave early enough to queue to buy paper tickets
(because you cannot rely on the automatic machines working)

What on earth would be the point? By the time you'd queued for the new
machine, it might as well just issue you with a paper Travelcard.

Because the machines need cards or cash and people entering pin
numbers and waiting for the ticket to be printed and trying to find
that last pound coin of change as well as people wanting to select
tickets for particular journeys.

I envisage a machine that just says "touch here for a One Day
Travelcard" and that is it.

Tim.

Genuinely, apart from anything else, this would just cause - or indeed
add to - confusion over day ticketing. The day ticketing product on
Oyster is daily price capping, full stop. Adding anything else, whilst
it would be technically possible, would just cause confusion. Having a
Day Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card would completely counter any
attempts to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible.

Plus there would be no real, functional, benefit. Unless one wanted to
propose a horrendously confusing system where Day Travelcard holders
could travel out of their zones and be charged PAYG fares for the
excess, but (obviously) only on routes where PAYG is accepted. That
would be a total nightmare!

The day ticketing situation would be made far more confusing if your
'innovation' was implemented. Thankfully nobody at TfL is planning
anything of the sort.

In article ,
(Ian Jelf) wrote:

In message .com,
Chris writes
Not bad - the North London line is already shut between Dalston &
Stratford on its first workday iun new colours....

There's a major fire in an ex-bus depot in Stratford, near the old
speedway stadium....the smoke plume can be seen from west London!

Is that what it is? I wondered when I hear where it was if it was
near the bus garage; so it *was* the bus garage on fire?

Which bus garage would it have been?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Which bus garage would it have been?

Waterden Road - formerly East London Buses, but then closed for the
Olympics redevelopment. But Stratford depot, which is still in use and
only just over the road, was evacuated.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...&t=k&z=18&om=1

--
Paul Terry