Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Taking a small tangent - I was told recently, that upon successfully
boarding a bus, a wheelchair user was confronted with a mother and pram
in the designated space. The mother indicated that she felt her needs
were greater before eventually but reluctantly giving way.

I have not seen a direct "confrontation" of this nature but I have seen
and experienced the inalienable right of mothers and buggy to generally
crash and bash their way through, over and past people who happen to be
"in their way". Or, in other words, happen to be somewhere in the front
2/3s of the lower deck of a London bus.

There is generally a sense of irresistible force meeting immovable
object when two prams compete for the same space on a bus. The resulting
diplomatic efforts, sometimes entertaining in themselves, usually block
the aisle, exit or both. Oh joy.

While I have no issue with provision of wheelchair spaces on buses I
find the policy framework and enforcement with regard to buggies is just
plain wrong. Drivers are placed in a ridiculous situation of trying to
police a situation which has no clear rules and no associated publicity.
I am fed up with having to stand or being evicted from seats or from
being bashed in to by people with buggies. As buses get busier and
busier the situation is becoming more and more problematic and
expectations are out of step with the physical ability to provide
adequate space. There are also times when the amount of crowding and
congestion is, in my opinion, creating a serious safety hazard in the
event of a crash or fire.


A few months ago I got market researched by telephone on behalf of TfL,
asking how I would rank priorities for who should use the wheelchair
spaces (are they actually called that, or is it multi-purpose space or
something?).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Henry typed


Not familiar with your area.
I've seen a solo wheelchair user happily* travelling on the 111, so it
can be done!

(* Looking less miserable than the rest of us bus travellers, at
least)

Solo wheelchairs have much bigger wheels than mine..

On 20 Nov, 21:52, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
....
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.
Do we have to demand a ramp?

I've no idea what the official guidance is, but I'm pretty sure I've
seen marked bell-pushes on the outside of some buses, suggesting
that you're expected to request the ramp. At the first stop, was it
obvious you wanted to board that particular bus ? (sounds harsh, but
if
it serves several routes and there was a rush of other passengers
then
he may simply not have realised. After that he's got a bit less of an
excuse!).

In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Paul Corfield wrote:
Ramps on London buses are nearly always at the centre doors [1] and are
powered.

About a month ago, I was waiting for a 521 at London Bridge station along with
a few others, including a young chap in a wheelchair. When the bus arrived,
the driver did his best to get the ramp out to the kerb, but it kept
slipping off because the bendy bus was too unwieldy for him to be able to
get it close enough to the slightly curved kerb.

In the end, a couple of other passengers helped the chap out by carrying him
(in his chair) onto the bus. (The driver was just getting out of his cab as
this happened, presumably to offer similar assistance; it just happened that
others got there first.)

So even when the driver _is_ willing to put quite some effort into extending
the ramp, it seems it's not always possible.

Kake

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

Many people wait by the bus stop and don't necessarily want that
particular bus. Sometimes one does need to ask (even) for the obvious.
What's obvious to one isn't always obvious to another.


--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

Robin

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender
wrote:

Ernst S Blofeld wrote:

I can recall the days when a mother fully laden with shopping, two small
children and a pram, could, without a moment's hesitation, deftly lift
one child out of the pram and over the shoulder, fold the pram and board
the bus whilst holding the shopping and the toddler.

I wonder *how* small the children were. Lifting a baby onto her
shoulder would be a very different matter from hauling a lively 2.5
year-old out of a push-chair. Also, before low-floor buses were the
norm, somebody with a push-chair would know they'd have to fold it and
would do so at the stop before the bus arrived. That's a different
matter from folding a push-chair in a hurry because a bus arrives with
no space to wheel a push-chair. (This is *not* to condone refusal by
anybody with a push-chair to fold it when a wheelchair user needs the
space. The rules are very clear about this, that wheelchairs take
priority)


Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.



My impression is that before low-floor buses were the norm somebody in
your position simply wouldn't have used buses at all - at least not
with only one adult in charge

Martin

Martin Rich wrote:
Also, before low-floor buses were the norm, somebody with a
push-chair would know they'd have to fold it and would do so at the
stop before the bus arrived. That's a different matter from folding a
push-chair in a hurry because a bus arrives with no space to wheel a
push-chair.

You have demonstrated my point. In having been furnished with lower
floors and wider aisles (even if only as a side-effect of disabled
provision), the child minder no longer contemplates folding in advance
even when they have the time and space to do so. Previously it was a
necessity but now it is largely an optional act of consideration for
others that is rarely exercised.

While much is to do with the self-centred 'society' we live in, and
misplaced parental instincts, the trend towards purchasing large,
all-terrain 'toddler tractors' doesn't help.

ESB

"Ernst S Blofeld" wrote in message
...
While it is true that 'mothers and prams' were not provided for in the
past, we seem to have come to the opposite extreme where the space offered
to them now (with the disabled priority proviso) is seen as an inalienable
right to be constantly exploited to the full. What passes for a 'pram' or
'buggy' these days is nothing short of a mini, all-terrain vehicle with a
wide wheelbase and armour plating, capable of carrying at least two
children, their toys du jour, the week's shopping and a couple of spare
car batteries. More often than not, they are fully loaded, batteries et
al. ready for all eventualities like a change of nappy or a thermonuclear
war.

I believe that the correct term for such vehicles is "Pavement Panzer"...
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Interestingly, my brother recently spent 8 months as a bus driver, working
for Arriva out of Enfield garage. We were speaking about this the other day
(following me seeing a wheelchair user not be able to get on two consecutive
123s at TPL due to dud ramps) and he said that although what you say is
perfectly correct, he was routinely "encouraged" by his manager to take a
bus with a defective ramp into service.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:33 +0000, "R.C. Payne"
wrote:
Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

I wonder whether the Anglo-Saxon (as they say in France) way of doing
it isn't in fact *more* common throughout Europe.

It's certainly the case on buses everywhere I've been in Spain,
Portugal, Belgium and is becoming the norm again in France, thanks to
anti-social types.

Some places (Paris) make an exception and allow boarding anywhere on
bendies, some (Barcelona) make you get on at the front.

Some places tolerate you getting off at the front but try to put you
off the idea, some won't let you at all.

Some Teutonic places allow boarding anywhere except after some time in
the evening (2000, 2100) after which you have to get on at the front.
Although there are a lot of options, I'd pick this one as the most
sensible for London's artics, at least outside the central area. Maybe
with a few hundred thousand new revenue inspectors it could be
extended to other buses as well...

As I've drifted off-topic a bit, I'd support Neil's idea that
wheelchairs and prams (detest the "B" word!) get on in the middle for
easy access to the open space, and with a proper middle pole at the
front doors and seats right at the front for people with other
mobility difficulties.

Richard.