On 16 Dec, 00:13, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off
peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a
discount under this system.

Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray?


With regards to daily capping, the peak period has always been 0430 to
0930 weekdays except public holidays (0430 being the start of the
charging day for Oyster PAYG purposes, and 0930 the traditional end of
the peak period - for example with regards to off-peak Travelcards).

The two periods when different Oyster PAYG fares are payable - i.e.
more expensive during weekday daytimes (7am - 7pm) and less at all
other times - have never been described as peak or off-peak,
presumably so as not to confuse the situation with the above
definition of peak.


However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to
query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here
as a PDF...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf


On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily
capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak
times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit
about London Overground (LO) that's interesting...

---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.

For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---


OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for
London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for
the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*"
and then
"(All other times including public holidays)".

If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find
this intriguing footnote:

---quote---
*For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston
inclusive, these fares apply as follows:
Towards Euston:
Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930.
From Euston:
Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900.
---/quote---


I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.

Or it could mean that all journeys from or to Watford Jn only will be
treated in this manner. This is what I think it might be trying to
say, not least because the Watford Jn (or "zone W" in internal TfL
communications only) to Euston fares will be higher than other fares,
as they have to be agreed with London Midland. The problem is that
this fares booklet then doesn't publish those fares at all. (And this
would mean that Oyster PAYG fares from Watford Jn are set to increase,
as currently Watford Jn - Euston is £5.50, the same price as Watford
High St/zone 8 to Euston/zone 1.)

I'm really not sure about all that - and I haven't even got to the bit
about daily capping!

I'm sure that, as with LU, these different charging period for Oyster
PAYG on London Overground won't affect the fundamentals of daily price
capping - i.e. that the peak period for capping is 0430 to 0930
weekdays (except public holidays), all other times are off-peak.

Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term
solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated
here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and
there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn
and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap,
plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of
that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford
Jn fare).

I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but
without exact information on how things will be working to/from
Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of
whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just
speculation. Paul C - can you help!!!

OK, I've had a little think and realise that a couple of the
presumptions I made in my last post were probably a bit wide of the
mark, so I'm going to correct myself here!

Note that the other points and queries I made in my other post still
stand.


Mizter T wrote:

(big snip)

OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for
London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for
the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*"
and then
"(All other times including public holidays)".

If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find
this intriguing footnote:

---quote---
*For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston
inclusive, these fares apply as follows:
Towards Euston:
Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930.
From Euston:
Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900.
---/quote---


I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.

I think, on reflection (given the use of the term"Watford Jn to Euston
inclusive") the above explanation is perhaps the more likely - i.e.
that the cheaper Oyster PAYG prices will apply on this line after
9:30am until 4pm, then again from 7pm. I presume the Euston - Watford
line is not heavily loaded during the day, so cheaper prices for
daytime travel might attract patronage.

If this is the case, then they're not doing a very good job of
actually explaining it to anyone!

And why do they use the term "local journeys"? Perhaps the booklet was
written, approved and printed before London Midland agreed to accept
Oyster PAYG on their trains between Watford Jn and Euston/ Harrow &
Wealdstone - so the phrase "local journeys" was meant to mean travel
on London Overground services only (because only loonies would take
the LO stopper all the way to Euston!).


Or it could mean that all journeys from or to Watford Jn only will be
treated in this manner. This is what I think it might be trying to
say, not least because the Watford Jn (or "zone W" in internal TfL
communications only) to Euston fares will be higher than other fares,
as they have to be agreed with London Midland. The problem is that
this fares booklet then doesn't publish those fares at all. (And this
would mean that Oyster PAYG fares from Watford Jn are set to increase,
as currently Watford Jn - Euston is �5.50, the same price as Watford
High St/zone 8 to Euston/zone 1.)


And as a result of my reflection I now don't think that what I say
above is in fact the right explanation.

The question of what fares will be charged and when for journeys on
the Watford - Euston line remains somewhat unclear - and the question
of what fares will be charged when a passenger starts or finishes at
Watford Junction remains a very murky one!

Also will there be a "zone W" daily cap?

And lastly there is the reference on page 17 of the TfL Fares booklet,
which hints that peak and off-peak times for daily capping might be
different on London Overground and refers readers to page 21. I just
can't imagine that the times for the peak/off-peak cap will be any
different whatsoever if a passenger travels on London Overground than
if they travelled on LU or the DLR, which leads me to think this is
somewhat misleading.

All that said, I might be a complete idiot and have got it all wrong.

On 16 Dec, 01:06, Mizter T wrote:
I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.

This document has the formal list of new fares (7MB PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf

Everything between Watford Junction and Zone is set by London Midland
rather LO. I'd assume far more customers use the former for this
journey. It does mention (paraphrasing) "The standard fare is charged
7am-7pm; discount fares at other times; Discount fares will _also_
apply at other times for certain journeys to or from Euston". Though
as in the booklet, the actual fares aren't mentioned.

I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but
without exact information on how things will be working to/from
Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of
whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just
speculation.

The 1-W cap is listed as also being London Midland's responsibility,
so may exist. Zone n-W (where n1) caps aren't mentioned at all.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off
peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a
discount under this system.

Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray?

As per Off Peak One Day Travelcard times - i.e. after 09.30 M-F. This
is no different to the existing off peak capping rules.

You may well be charged a fare at the higher price that applies between
07.00 - 19.00 but if that is after 09.30 then the off peak cap applies.
Alternatively if there is only one trip prior to 09.30 and loads
afterwards your daily charge may well be the fare prior to 09.30 plus
the off peak cap where this is less then the Peak Cap level (typically
the Peak One Day Travelcard price less 50p). Oyster will always go back
and do the sums to ensure the lowest price or combination of prices is
charged.

Confused? - you will be.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to
query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here
as a PDF...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf


On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily
capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak
times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit
about London Overground (LO) that's interesting...

---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.

For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---


OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for
London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for
the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*"
and then
"(All other times including public holidays)".

If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find
this intriguing footnote:

---quote---
*For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston
inclusive, these fares apply as follows:
Towards Euston:
Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930.
From Euston:
Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900.
---/quote---


I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.

It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then
you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator.
However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens
Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately
resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F.

In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend
charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service.

This is the first real application of differential fares by time and
direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to
it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change
operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or
exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be
particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of
either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to
the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you
might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before
heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through
if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been
explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out
these issues.

Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term
solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated
here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and
there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn
and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap,
plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of
that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford
Jn fare).

Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an
earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford
Junction - they were in the post!!!!!!

I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but
without exact information on how things will be working to/from
Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of
whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just
speculation. Paul C - can you help!!!

There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are
prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all
applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of
Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else
none of this works properly.

As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because
pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I
have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the
TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to
price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between
the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's
perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't
seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know
what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for
cash payers.

All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that
cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's
being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in
second place.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

I was rather hoping to get online and post here and correct myself
before you did - so I would be the one pointing out I'm an idiot,
rather than anyone else! Unfortunately commitments this morning meant
I couldn't.

Anyway I'm holding my head in shame at having written posts late last
night that I thought were filled with pertinent questions, but were
(as I can see in the cold light of day) in fact filled with a
demonstration my inability to read previous answers and go through th
erelevant information and then put 2 and 2 together!

I perhaps wasn't quite at my sharpest last night!


Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to
query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here
as a PDF...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf


On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily
capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak
times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit
about London Overground (LO) that's interesting...

---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.

For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---


OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for
London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for
the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*"
and then
"(All other times including public holidays)".

If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find
this intriguing footnote:

---quote---
*For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston
inclusive, these fares apply as follows:
Towards Euston:
Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930.
From Euston:
Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900.
---/quote---


I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.

It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then
you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator.
However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens
Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately
resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F.

In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend
charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service.

This is the first real application of differential fares by time and
direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to
it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change
operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or
exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be
particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of
either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to
the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you
might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before
heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through
if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been
explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out
these issues.


Thanks, thanks for the confirmation (I think I'd deciphered this by
the time I'd replied to myself!). So Watford - Euston line PAYG fares
will be at the cheaper (in internal TfL lingo "discount") PAYG rate
for much of the day.

I wonder if the text shouldn't say "Towards Watford Junction" rather
than "From Euston" to indicate the evening peak flow - "From Euston"
could be misconstrued to mean just journeys that start from Euston.

This will be interesting. I can imagine it will confuse people - for
example those doing short local journeys in the 'wrong' direction.
Let's say a parent goes to pick their child up from primary school
from Bushey to Hatch End. Their return journey (after 4pm) will be
charged at the higher rate, though I bet the trains that far out
aren't that busy at that time, and perhaps not any busier in one
direction to the other.

Interesting scenario you put forward with regards to arriving in
Euston pre-7pm and then waiting for 7pm before entering the LU network
so as to ensure the whole PAYG fare is at the discount rate. Starting
from Harrow & Wealdstone the PAYG fare difference is more pronounced -
either £3.50 or £2 discounted. For those savvy to this distinction,
they might in fact prefer to travel on the Watford - Euston line
rather than the Bakerloo simply to take advantage of this.

But nonetheless it sounds like a good plan. It's communicating it to
the punters that's the challenge - especially if there going to be as
dense as I was being!

Lastly, if I'm right in understanding this all, PAYG journeys starting
or finishing at Watford Jn will be priced by London Midland - I'm
still a bit unclear as to whether these journeys will be cheaper on
weekdays between 0930 and 1600, as will be the case with all other
journeys on the Watford - Euston line.


Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term
solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated
here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and
there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn
and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap,
plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of
that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford
Jn fare).

Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an
earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford
Junction - they were in the post!!!!!!


Sorry, I'm not really sure what I was thinking - I managed to
desperately ask questions that had already clearly been answered - and
answered by your good self, at my request no less. Evidently I just
wasn't thinking!

Without a doubt I win the utl dunce of the month award for that.


I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but
without exact information on how things will be working to/from
Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of
whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just
speculation. Paul C - can you help!!!

There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are
prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all
applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of
Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else
none of this works properly.

As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because
pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I
have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the
TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to
price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between
the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's
perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't
seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know
what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for
cash payers.


That all makes sense, of course.

So, just to be clear, for a simple minded soul like myself, the PAYG
prices for single journeys to/from Watford Jn will be set by London
Midland, and has already been decided, but doesn't feature in the TfL
2008 fares booklet.

The current Watford Jn - Euston PAYG price of £5.50/ £3 was presumably
set by TfL *before* London Midland agreed to accept Oyster PAYG from
Watford Jn. Therefore the control over setting this fare will in fact
be passing from TfL to London Midland, right? If so this would surely
have knock-on implications for the other PAYG fares from Watford Jn,
such as a simple Watford Jn to Watford High St fare, or Watford Jn to
Harrow & Wealdstone - PAYG fares that thus far have been set solely by
TfL.


All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that
cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's
being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in
second place.

--
Paul C

Indeed. (The following fares info is sourced from the Avantix
Traveller program.)

What those cash fares will be is interesting - as since January 2007,
fares between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park have all followed
the LU principle of charging £3 for a cash fare outside of z1, and £4
for a cash fare for travel to zone 1 (i.e. to Euston). Similarly from
South Hampstead up to H&W all cash single fares are £3.

However whilst SDR are priced at double that - as they would be on LU,
where a return is twice the single fare - CDRs are currently available
at prices closer to the single fare.

I'd also be intrigued to know if a single £4 ticket to Euston sold at
(for example) Kenton is sold as a through LU zonal fare, so it could
be used for onward travel from Euston on LU, or if it is sold as a
standard point-to-point NR fare. Of course, Kenton and all the other
stations (apart from Willesden Jn) are now run by LU, so perhaps such
a ticket would be issued as if it were an LU fares nowadays - but
under the old Silverlink regime, I wonder if they were? And what
happens at Willesden Jn, where the ticket offices are run by LOROL.

I'm just pondering whether punters could hand over £4 and end up with
two very different tickets - one a simple singe to Euston, the other a
through LU fare for onwards Underground travel - depending upon
whether they specify they actually specify they want onwards travel or
not.

In addition I should point out that Railcard discounts are available
on the £3 or £4 fares on the Watford Jn - Euston line, but if a ticket
was issued with Railcard discount, then presumably it would have to be
issued as a point-to-point NR ticket to Euston, as plain-vanilla LU
cash fares cannot be discounted with a Railcard.

I'm also left wondering whether the LU fare scale might at some point
be applied to the NLL and WLL, at least with regards to single tickets
- i.e. £3 for a single ticket - as has been done on the Watford -
Euston line.

The question of whether tickets are issued as zonal fares (ala LU) or
as NR specified point-to-point tickets is also interesting. Tickets
printed as zonal fares do allow for flexibility, but they are perhaps
arguably more open to misuse (i.e. reused for several journeys during
the day) on routes where many stations still don't have ticket gates,
as is the case with a number of stations on the NLL (though gates have
gone in at many points). Of course a point-to-point return ticket can
still be misused/reused as well, especially as the rules allow for
breaks of journey - but perhaps misuse is harder to spot, and they
don't allow a subsequent ride on the Underground either.

(Do LU issued single fares get rejected by the gates if a long period
has elapsed from the time when they were purchased?)

For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you
might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before
heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through
if you re-entered after 1900.

Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster
system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out
point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular
case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged.
The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into
two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open
interchange.

On 16 Dec, 14:23, Martin Krieger wrote:
For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you
might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before
heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through
if you re-entered after 1900.

Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster
system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out
point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular
case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged.
The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into
two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open
interchange.


I'm a bit confused by where you've got 10:00 from, and what you mean
by Euston being an "open interchange". Nevertheless I'll attempt to
pad out the scenario that Paul was outlining...

Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground
train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey
will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the
'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the
Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this
direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays.

Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare.
If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston
Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM)
for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's
say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster
system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the
through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey.

If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps
counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter
the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as
travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they
exit the system and finish the journey.

Will it really work that way? As far as I have understood the oyster
system, the fare is calculated between the touch-in and the touch-out
point, and touches in between will be ignored. So in that particular
case, as the touch-in is before 10:00, the higher price will be charged.
The only chance to take advantage of this is to break the journey into
two separate journeys - which is not that easy as Euston is an open
interchange.

I'm a bit confused by where you've got 10:00 from, and what you mean
by Euston being an "open interchange". Nevertheless I'll attempt to
pad out the scenario that Paul was outlining...

Sorry, the 10:00 was a typo, should have been 19:00. And by "open
interchange" I meant an out of station (need to go through barriers)
interchange.

Touch-in at South Kenton at 18:15 for the 18:21 London Overground
train to Euston. Arrive at Euston at 18:50. This part of the journey
will be charged at the 'discount' Oyster fare of £2, not the
'standard' fare of £2.50, because of the special arrangement on the
Watford - Euston line that means the cheaper fare is in force in this
direction (towards Euston) from 0930 onwards on weekdays.

Thus far, the Oyster system considers one to be on a 'discount' fare.
If the passenger then enters the LU network at Euston (or Euston
Square, as it is a valid out-of-station interchange with Euston UIVMM)
for an onward journey to somewhere else - for argument's sake let's
say it is somewhere within zones 1 to 4 - before 1900 then the Oyster
system will revert to charging them a full fare of £2.50 for the
through journey when they exit the system and finish their journey.

If however they wait around in Euston for a few minutes (perhaps
counting how many pigeons are actually inside the building) then enter
the LU network after 1900 the Oyster system will still regard them as
travelling on a 'discount' fare and will only charge them £2 when they
exit the system and finish the journey.

Yes, that's what Paul said. But this would mean that the time of the
interchange would be taken into account when calculating the fare. As
this is against the usual way of calculating PAYG fares I have some
doubts that it really works that way. Maybe Paul could be so kind and
recheck this?

Anyway, next year we will see how it really works.

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off
peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a
discount under this system.

Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray?

As per Off Peak One Day Travelcard times - i.e. after 09.30 M-F. This
is no different to the existing off peak capping rules.#


Whilst I managed to get in a great muddle about the PAYG pricing on
the Watford - Euston line, I'm pretty sure that on this issue the TfL
2008 Fares booklet is misleading.

Page 17 deals with Oyster daily price capping, and there is a table of
all the different peak and off-peak caps.

The table merely includes two different columns labelled "Peak" and
"Off-peak" - underneath the table is the explanatory text, which
reads...

---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.

For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---


Of course page 21 doesn't provide any information about differences in
how the peak and off-peak cap are applied on London Overground,
because they're no applied any differently. All page 21 shows are that
there are different PAYG single fares that apply at different times on
the Watford - Euston line - in internal lingo, the times when
'standard' (i.e. the more expensive) and 'discount' (i.e. the cheaper)
fares apply.

Thus far all Oyster literature has been very circumspect in using the
terms "peak" and "off-peak" solely in relation to the 0930 shift from
peak to off-peak (on both Oyster daily price capping and Day
Travelcards). It has never muddled the waters by describing the two
bands of PAYG fares as peak or off-peak, it has merely defined these
two bands by the times when they are charged ('standard' between
0700-1900 weekdays and 'discount' at all other times).

However the text above really does muddle them all together,
completely unnecessarily AFAICS as the times of peak and off-peak in
terms of Oyster daily capping remain totally unchanged.

One reading the above information might be led to believe that they
will be subject to a peak cap if they use the Watford - Euston line
between 1600-1900 on weekdays - which of course they won't be (but in
a way could be believed, especially in the context of other operators
cracking down on off-peak fares in the evening rush-hour e.g. FCC's
prohibition against using the return portion of off-peak tickets on
trains leaving London trains in the evening rush).

Whilst I may have got spectacularly muddled about other issues, on
this issue I'm pretty clear - the text on page 17 appears to be
muddled and misleading. Is there anything I'm missing?


You may well be charged a fare at the higher price that applies between
07.00 - 19.00 but if that is after 09.30 then the off peak cap applies.
Alternatively if there is only one trip prior to 09.30 and loads
afterwards your daily charge may well be the fare prior to 09.30 plus
the off peak cap where this is less then the Peak Cap level (typically
the Peak One Day Travelcard price less 50p). Oyster will always go back
and do the sums to ensure the lowest price or combination of prices is
charged.


One thing I have read on utl several times is people saying that if
you use your Oyster once before 0930 then you will automatically be
working towards the peak cap, and will miss out on the off-peak cap.
Of course, as you explain above, this just ain't so.

In several scenarios passengers will be charged the off-peak cap plus
the cost of a pre-0930 peak time journey - and this could particularly
be the case if the journey mix doesn't involve zone 1, or involves
buses.

Some examples (not for the benefit of Paul C, of course, but anyone
else still stupid enough to be reading what I've got to say)...


* A passenger travels from Earl's Court to Wimbledon and then back
again, all before 0930. They would be charged 2 x £1 fares on Oyster
PAYG. Later, after 0930, they then travel to Heathrow and back to
Earl's Court, then again to Wimbledon and back. All the off-peak
(post-0930) journeys will be capped at the z2-6 off-peak cap of £4.30,
whilst the two peak journeys will be charged separately at a total of
£2 [2 x £1] - so the total amount debited from the balance during the
day would be be £6.30 [£4.30 + £2], which is less than the z2-6 peak
cap of £7.90.

* A passenger travels on a single bus pre-0930 and is charged 90p. The
passenger then travels on several more buses during the day and is
capped at the daily bus cap of £3. The same passenger then makes a
return journey between Tooting Broadway (z3) and Clapham Common (z2)
before 7pm - the Oyster fare for that journey would be £1.80 (the
'standard' that applies between 0700-1900). The running total after
the outward journey to Clapham Common would thus be £4.80 [£1.80 + the
£3 bus cap]. The z2-6 off-peak cap of £4.30 won't have kicked in yet
because of that single pre-0930 peak time bus journey.

On the return to Tooting Broadway the running total would be £3.60
[(£1.80 x 2) + the £3 bus cap], were it not for the fact that the z2-6
off-peak cap would have kicked in by this point. The daily bus cap
will thus be converted, minus a single 90p bus fare for that pre-0930
bus journey, into a z2-6 off-peak cap at £4.30. The passenger will
thus be charged £5.20 [£4.30 + 90p].

If however the passenger had made the return journey between Tooting
Broadway and Clapham Common _after_ 1900, then the 'discount' Oyster
fare of £1 would have been charged. Therefore they would be charged 2
x £1 fares + the £3 bus = £5, because that is cheaper than the £5.20
that is charged above if the Tube journeys had been made before 7pm.

If one of the two Tube journeys was in fact made before 1900 then the
total would again be £5.20, but I'll let you work that one out for
yourself if you're still reading this!


Confused? - you will be.

--
Paul C


Indeed! Having worked through all of the above, there's a bit of me
that's left feeling that flat fares might not be such a bad idea after
all!

The thing that really muddies the waters is the two separate time
bands - the peak/off-peak change at 0930, and the
'standard' (0700-1900) and 'discount' (all other times) Oyster PAYG
fares.

A while back Dave Arquati wrote a piece for an Imperial College
magazine that I saw on the web (but can't find now - maybe it ain't
there any more), and he used a phrase that has stuck in my mind - that
users will have to "Trust in thy Oyster"!

Oyster is a smart card, the problem being is that perhaps it's just a
bit too smart! Like many others here I like to know how it works, but
some of the calculations are pretty complex - such as in situations
where the cap that is applied can change dynamically according to the
situation. I haven't got the brain power to work it out now (!), but I
suspect there are scenarios where a peak cap can morph into an off-
peak cap with the peak journeys charged separately (for example when
the passenger travels to distant zones after 0930).

It is certainly possible for two caps to be applied - e.g. a £3 bus
cap for several peak journeys then a z1-6 off-peak cap of £6.30 for
several off-peak journeys, resulting in a total of £9.30 -
significantly cheaper than the z1-6 peak cap of £13.30.

What would be great would be for the Oyster online journey history to
offer some kind of simple visual breakdown of journeys on any one day
when a cap (or caps) had been applied, and to divvy up each of the
day's journeys into appropriate groupings so as to show the logic that
lay behind what was charged that day. I'm living in cloud cuckoo land
of course!