In message
, at
03:12:46 on Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
They won't be introducing Oyster outside Greater London. Their
commitment is to introduce ITSO, which is unlikely to include a PAYG
type product. (ITSO seems likely to be able to hold seasons, carnets
and 'stored journey rights')

I'm waiting to see what degree of interoperability there is between the
ITSO cards introduced by different ToCs. Could I reasonably expect to
have a "SWT" branded ITSO card and use it to pick up [1] a ticket at
Kings Cross for a forthcoming trip between Birmingham and Derby on
Arriva XC.

And if not, where and with whose card might I expect to.

Putting pure technology issues aside, I note that there are currently
restrictions on Oyster about doing various administrative things only at
pre-nominated stations.

[1] Either at a "NXEC or "FCC" standard validator or at a dedicated
kiosk.

[2] I believe that both NXEC and Arriva XC (and EMT) have e-ticketing as
franchise commitments.
--
Roland Perry

On Jan 17, 10:00*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 05:36:04 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
But the logic has a different purpose from that behind travelcards.
Travelcards are a simple case of ensuring cash flow pay getting cash
up front for a cheaper offer.

It is a long standing product which existed before a single UTS style
ticket gates was ever installed. *The coding parameters are relatively
simple as are the fraud checks as there are only so many that can be
done and even then only a subset can be detected via gates. *Travelcards
or season tickets can work without any form of automatic checking.

The purpose of Travelcards is the offer a bulk travel product for
regular travellers. Yes they receive a discount compared to buying
single tickets for every journey and that reflects the reduction in cost
to the operator from fewer transactions and shorter queues and also the
fact that money is received up front. However that latter fact is NOT
the "purpose" of the product.

PAYG has a different purpose which is to ensure that maximum cash is
extracted with minimal effort as the journeys are made. *It's this
purpose, rather than the logic, that might be considered unreasonable,
and lead one to be wary of how the same logic might be applied on a
larger scale.

Sorry but you are completely incorrect. It was never a project objective
for Stored Value that maximum cash be extracted for minimal effort. The
purpose was to provide an additional product for people who have highly
variable journey needs, who may travel off peak more than the peak and
who cannot commit to a season ticket product. They were stuck with a
situation where they had to buy fully priced tickets or skew their
journeys to be able to use One Day Travelcards. However they then have
the burden of queuing up every day. *That's expensive to run,
inconvenient and not customer friendly. SVT (now PAYG) has to have
validation on entry and on exit whether on Smartcards or on hi
coercivity magnetics. *London is the only place in the world that I am
aware of where a SVT system is in place without gates at every single
point of entry and exit to the system. *There are a number of options
that can be employed to "incentivise" people to validate and to retain
their cards. *London tried the option of a low form of fare deduction on
entry with further deduction on exit for PAYG. The system was abused (as
might have been expected) but at least TfL gave people the benefit of
the doubt initially. *In the face of demonstrable evasion TfL had no
choice but to amend the fare deduction on entry provisions to the
current £4 or £5 level. *The fact that was done still does not make it
the "purpose" of the product.

Was the number of unresolved journeys used as evidence for evasion?
That's a wild assumption. I had a number of unresolved journeys
before the penalty version was brought in, but I never evaded any
fares.

These were in situations where I got on one stop into zone 3 with a
zone 1 and 2 travelcard (paper, from NR). The only extension I could
get was at the standard, huge cash fare, which I wasn't going to pay.

Given that the minimum (correct) fare would be deducted from my
Oyster, I declined to get off at the boundary station just to touch
out, so the journey was unresolved.

Was this the "fraud" that the outrageous cash fares (playing into the
hands of the appalling Boris Johnson) was meant to prevent?

If so, it's misguided and could be solved in far better ways, such as
(as I have suggested over and over) selling extension tickets at a
reasonable price to holders of paper travelcards and the installation
of validators in trains.

The former would be very simple, and TfL's refusal to do it does not
show any kind of concern for offering choices to customers, but does
show an intention to extract cash, sorry.

On Jan 17, 10:03*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Paul Scott wrote

SWT mention in their latest magazine that the Waterloo Gateline,
installation about to start this month apparently, will have 120

gates.

Here is the full quote - SWT free magazine, p8 of issue 26 Jan/Feb '08
(not in the excerpts on the web site).

We're happy to tell you that work by Network Rail to install automatic
barriers will commence at the beginning of 2008. This will involve
removing some of the nearby retail outlets and opening up the current
gateline, after which cabling, ducting and associated works for the new
gates will be carried out.

The actual gates will be installed mid-summer {2008}, a process that
will take until early 2009 to complete. It will be the biggest gating
scheme in Europe, involving the installation of more than 120 gates.

I wonder if the gateline will be rearranged to allow access behind the
buffers?

Otherwise it's going to be problematic if people who just miss their
first train have to go back through the barriers to get to the
adjacent platform, particularly if PAYG is being deducted.

In message
, at
00:53:31 on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, MIG
remarked:
I wonder if the gateline will be rearranged to allow access behind the
buffers?

Otherwise it's going to be problematic if people who just miss their
first train have to go back through the barriers to get to the
adjacent platform, particularly if PAYG is being deducted.

Why should it be different to (say) Victoria, where you can't get from
every set of buffers to every other - although arguably "another train"
to somewhere might be from a nearby platform (even if the very next one
might not be).
--
Roland Perry

On 18 Jan, 07:02, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
03:12:46 on Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:

They won't be introducing Oyster outside Greater London. Their
commitment is to introduce ITSO, which is unlikely to include a PAYG
type product. (ITSO seems likely to be able to hold seasons, carnets
and 'stored journey rights')

I'm waiting to see what degree of interoperability there is between the
ITSO cards introduced by different ToCs. Could I reasonably expect to
have a "SWT" branded ITSO card and use it to pick up [1] a ticket at
Kings Cross for a forthcoming trip between Birmingham and Derby on
Arriva XC.

And if not, where and with whose card might I expect to.

Putting pure technology issues aside, I note that there are currently
restrictions on Oyster about doing various administrative things only at
pre-nominated stations.


The actual physical card could be provided by many different sources,
possibly even places like libraries or the local bus company.
The products ('stored journey rights, seasons and carnets) will be
retailed by the TOCs and agents such as the Trainline. Loading could
take place either at the point of sale, or through the TOD
functionality at validators.
Stored value interavailability (e.g using Nottingham Easyrider credit
as Oyster PAYG credit) is unlikely because of the e-money issues.

On 18 Jan, 09:43, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
00:53:31 on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, MIG
remarked:

I wonder if the gateline will be rearranged to allow access behind the
buffers?

Otherwise it's going to be problematic if people who just miss their
first train have to go back through the barriers to get to the
adjacent platform, particularly if PAYG is being deducted.

Why should it be different to (say) Victoria, where you can't get from
every set of buffers to every other - although arguably "another train"
to somewhere might be from a nearby platform (even if the very next one
might not be).


All the, eg next train to Bromley South, will be from platforms that
you can get to from the same gate. Victoria is really two adjacent
stations serving very different destinations.

At Waterloo, if you want to get to, say, Wandsworth Town, the next two
trains on the indicator might be from platforms 15 and 17, one of
which you might just miss. You can't cross behind the buffers to get
to the other.

However, I think it's quite likely that the whole of the current wall
will be demolished for the new gatelines, so I hope this won't be a
problem.

In message
, at
02:47:02 on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
I'm waiting to see what degree of interoperability there is between the
ITSO cards introduced by different ToCs. Could I reasonably expect to
have a "SWT" branded ITSO card and use it to pick up [1] a ticket at
Kings Cross for a forthcoming trip between Birmingham and Derby on
Arriva XC.

And if not, where and with whose card might I expect to.

Putting pure technology issues aside, I note that there are currently
restrictions on Oyster about doing various administrative things only at
pre-nominated stations.


The actual physical card could be provided by many different sources,
possibly even places like libraries or the local bus company.

Yes, I understand that's the idea. One of the things I'm trying to find
out is will I need half a dozen separate cards (one for the library, one
for the bus, one for SWT, one for XC etc), or will whatever the first
one I get then be capable of handling *everything* simultaneously.

The products ('stored journey rights, seasons and carnets) will be
retailed by the TOCs and agents such as the Trainline. Loading could
take place either at the point of sale, or through the TOD
functionality at validators.

Could... but *will* they? That's the question. Or do I have to find
specific "loading points".

In the extreme, I wouldn't really expect to get a SWT season ticket I
bought last night suddenly appear on my ITSO card when I use it (at some
point in the future) to make a trip on a Nottingham bus.

But would I be wrong to expect it to suddenly appear if I used that same
card to work the barrier into Nottingham railway station on my way back
to London having just spent the weekend in the Midlands? Or would I have
to wait until I encountered a SWT-branded validator?

Stored value interavailability (e.g using Nottingham Easyrider credit
as Oyster PAYG credit) is unlikely because of the e-money issues.

Agreed. I was only talking about picking up specific pre-paid
"e-tickets".
--
Roland Perry

On 18 Jan, 11:11, MIG wrote:

However, I think it's quite likely that the whole of the current wall
will be demolished for the new gatelines, so I hope this won't be a
problem.


I'm sure you're right about demolishing the whole wall - this plan
gives 6.7 gates per platform, which to my mind will absorb most if not
all of the width of a single platfrom plus associated track.

On a related note, I thought a major redevelopment of Waterloo which
would lower the concourse and extend the platforms above it was on the
cards in the next couple of years. Although the gate hardware will be
re-usable, I'm sure there will be some significant costs around this
short-term deployment.

Steve Adams

Could... but *will* they? That's the question. Or do I have to find
specific "loading points".

In the extreme, I wouldn't really expect to get a SWT season ticket I
bought last night suddenly appear on my ITSO card when I use it (at some
point in the future) to make a trip on a Nottingham bus.

But would I be wrong to expect it to suddenly appear if I used that same
card to work the barrier into Nottingham railway station on my way back
to London having just spent the weekend in the Midlands? Or would I have
to wait until I encountered a SWT-branded validator?


It will all depend on commercial agreements. Pick-up at a gateline
will only be possible at a single pre-nominated gateline. It remains
to be seen what TOCs will organise for that functionality.

Pick-up at a Fastticket-style machine may well follow the exisiting
arrangements. From past posts this does seem to be possible at other
machines than the one nominated.

Pick-up from a bus ticket machine is technically just about possible,
but I think unlikely to happen.

In message
, at
06:09:14 on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:

Could... but *will* they? That's the question. Or do I have to find
specific "loading points".

In the extreme, I wouldn't really expect to get a SWT season ticket I
bought last night suddenly appear on my ITSO card when I use it (at some
point in the future) to make a trip on a Nottingham bus.

But would I be wrong to expect it to suddenly appear if I used that same
card to work the barrier into Nottingham railway station on my way back
to London having just spent the weekend in the Midlands? Or would I have
to wait until I encountered a SWT-branded validator?

It will all depend on commercial agreements. Pick-up at a gateline
will only be possible at a single pre-nominated gateline.

Why?? This makes huge assumptions about where my future travels plans
might take me.

FastTicket pickup *claims* to be only at nominated machines, but in
practice seems to be "any of them".

It remains to be seen what TOCs will organise for that functionality.

In other words, whose gatelines will be available for the pickup of
which tickets?

Here's an example: say I already have a ticket for Nottingham to Luton,
but my travel plans change and I buy a second ticket from Luton to
London. My train stops at Luton (so no issues with combining tickets).

BUT if I can only pick up that second ticket at the Luton gateline (or
any other FCC gateline - the argument is the same) then I can't make a
proper through journey as the train will have departed again by the time
I can do that.
--
Roland Perry