On 4 Jan, 20:22, Richard wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:26:19 +0000, Walter Briscoe

wrote:
Mizter T:
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. *Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. *The guard was
very happy to sell it, but accidentally issued it for the next day. *I
only found out when I tried to go through the gateline at Charing
Cross, where they told me that I would need to go back to Waterloo to
get it changed. *I intend to complain about that - it's an RSP ticket
after all - but anyway...


I'm mildly curious to know where this ticket machine that couldn't
sell an Off-Peak Day Travelcard was - it seems rather remiss for any
ticket machine within reasonable reach of London by rail (i.e. around
the south east) not to have it as an option.


My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. *It may
of course be keeping the gate config simple, rather than a statement
of policy... *With a minute to go to get my train at Waterloo, I
didn't hang around to discuss the conditions of carriage!


Was the next day a weekday? If so then what happened would make
perfect sense - an Off-Peak Day Travelcard would not be valid until
after 0930 on a weekday, full stop.

I'm sure I have used a Off-Peak Travelcard, issued in advance the day
before by a National Rail ticket machine, to successfully get through
LU ticket gates after midnight on a Friday or Saturday night (i.e. in
the first hour of its validity).

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:55:52 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 4 Jan, 20:22, Richard wrote:
I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. *Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. [...]

I'm mildly curious to know where this ticket machine that couldn't
sell an Off-Peak Day Travelcard was - it seems rather remiss for any
ticket machine within reasonable reach of London by rail (i.e. around
the south east) not to have it as an option.

I was trying unsuccessfully to keep the rant short! I did have a
ticket from Fleet to Surbiton and wanted a Travelcard to start from
there. A pity that there isn't an "advanced" mode for more exotic
tickets.

My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. *[...]

Was the next day a weekday? If so then what happened would make
perfect sense - an Off-Peak Day Travelcard would not be valid until
after 0930 on a weekday, full stop.

Yes, of course... I thought for a moment that it wasn't but in fact it
was the first minutes of Tuesday 23rd. Thanks for clearing that up!

Richard.

On 5 Jan, 00:54, Richard wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:55:52 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 4 Jan, 20:22, Richard wrote:
I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. *Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. [...]

I'm mildly curious to know where this ticket machine that couldn't
sell an Off-Peak Day Travelcard was - it seems rather remiss for any
ticket machine within reasonable reach of London by rail (i.e. around
the south east) not to have it as an option.

I was trying unsuccessfully to keep the rant short! *I did have a
ticket from Fleet to Surbiton and wanted a Travelcard to start from
there. *A pity that there isn't an "advanced" mode for more exotic
tickets.


Indeed - however the railway is apparently rather wary of remotely
issued tickets however for fear of people fraudulently misusing them.
If a ticket machine could be designed that somehow scanned one's
existing ticket then the potential for misuse could be much reduced -
and doing such a thing could be easier in the upcoming era of
smartcard ticketing. Still seems rather unlikely!

It's good to hear that guards on SWT will sell what is in effect a
ticket extension without fuss. I presume that Fleet ticket office was
closed, or was there just a horrible queue or you were in a rush, the
logic being that if the guard turned down your request you could
alight and buy the needed ticket at Surbiton? Sorry for the
inquisition!


My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. *[...]

Was the next day a weekday? If so then what happened would make
perfect sense - an Off-Peak Day Travelcard would not be valid until
after 0930 on a weekday, full stop.

Yes, of course... I thought for a moment that it wasn't but in fact it
was the first minutes of Tuesday 23rd. *Thanks for clearing that up!


No problem, glad we got to the bottom of that!

Can we get back to my query now?? :-)

On 4 Jan, 15:19, Mizter T wrote:
Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

A fair enough question though, one I pondered myself on examining the
new fares. A few thoughts...

Secondly, in this hypothetical scenario there would only be a two hour
window in the early morning (0430 to 0630) that would count towards an
Off-Peak cap before the peak cap kicked in between 0630 and 0930 -
implementing this was perhaps simply not thought worthwhile,
considering the strictly limited number of people who might benefit
from it.

Hmmm - sorry, but that would be incredibly sloppy of TfL if you're
right....there's a lot of 6am shift workers who travel before
0600....never mind 0630. It might also encourage more people to travel
out of high-peak times, if they can.

Thirdly, there's an argument about keeping it simple - OK, there are
now somewhat confusingly two definitions of Peak and Off-Peak in
operation w.r.t. Oyster, that of daily capping and separately that of
single fares - but the notion that morning peak journeys before 0930
count towards the Peak cap is arguably far simpler to communicate to
passengers.

Again, it's very sloppy, and to be frank, unacceptable if it's the
right answer....

Fourthly, Oyster daily capping rates shadow the prices of Day
Travelcards (the caps are all 50p less than the quasi-equivalent Day
Travelcard) - perhaps it's easier, simpler, or even necessary for the
Oyster Off-Peak daily caps to shadow the time restrictions of Off-Peak
Day Travelcards [1].

Ditto above, sorry.

Fifthly (and connected to the last point), Oyster PAYG is being rolled
out across National Rail - if there was to be a two hour Off-Peak
capping window (0430-0630) in the morning that would presumably
require the agreement of the TOCs. This may well not be forthcoming -
TOCs aren't keen on reducing their potential revenue, and are also
rather wary of TfL and the Mayor dictating their fares (which is in a
sense what this would entail).

I think you've hit the nail on the head - there's little chance that
TOCs will allow an off-peak period prior to 0630.....

Also TOCs might be wary of implementing it because of the resulting
problems it might cause - in general mainline rail services don't get
going until a bit later than the Tube, so rail passengers might end up
frustrated in their efforts to slip in the Off-Peak window and
complete their journey before 0630, especially if a train was delayed
or cancelled.

Once the stations are all gated (the London stations I assume will all
be gated to take Oyster PAYG?), maybe they'll think about it to reduce
the crush in the high-peak.....
.....
One might say that some night workers might benefit from the 0430-0630
window being included in the Off-Peak cap, which is something I would
be sympathetic to if this was the case - but I'm far from sure that
that arguemnt stacks up... the reason being is, essentially people who
are travelling every day to work will either simply be paying single
Oyster PAYG fares (which are now cheaper pre-0630 on the Tube) or will
buy a period Travelcard, depending on which works out cheaper for them
- in other words regular (i.e. more or less daily) commuters simply
shouldn't be relying on daily capping for their normal journey,
because it will be more expensive for them.

Those working 2 or 3 days a week might well do this though?....why
should they lose out?

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:42:12 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
It's good to hear that guards on SWT will sell what is in effect a
ticket extension without fuss. I presume that Fleet ticket office was
closed, or was there just a horrible queue or you were in a rush, the
logic being that if the guard turned down your request you could
alight and buy the needed ticket at Surbiton? Sorry for the
inquisition!

You can ask anything you like! The ticket office had closed a little
early and as discussed elsewhere the Permit to Travel machines have
disappeared. I think I mentioned that the office had shut, which
might have helped. The SWT guards seem happier to sell excesses than
discounted tickets - one told me that if he sold an off-peak ticket
for travel the same day he'd be asked why. Mine neatly avoided the
problem by getting the date wrong...

In my experience, most people who ask for a ticket on the train get
one, though probably the peak version. Not many SWT guards *seem* to
have the Penalty Fare training, or if they do they use their
discretion a lot. Almost all of them seem very professional.

Richard.