Specifically, the am peak.

I notice that it is 0630-0930 for peak single prices on the tube, but
the peak cap runs from 0400...(? - start of service).

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

All the recording is computerised, so it should be simple to get the
programming right....so what's the reason?

On 4 Jan, 13:01, Chris wrote:
Specifically, the am peak.

I notice that it is 0630-0930 for peak single prices on the tube, but
the peak cap runs from 0400...(? - start of service).


No, 0430 (the Oyster charging day runs from 0430 to 0430).


Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

All the recording is computerised, so it should be simple to get the
programming right....so what's the reason?


A fair enough question though, one I pondered myself on examining the
new fares. A few thoughts... First off, perhaps configuring the system
to enable this isn't actually a simple matter at all (and is perhaps
not even possible).

Secondly, in this hypothetical scenario there would only be a two hour
window in the early morning (0430 to 0630) that would count towards an
Off-Peak cap before the peak cap kicked in between 0630 and 0930 -
implementing this was perhaps simply not thought worthwhile,
considering the strictly limited number of people who might benefit
from it.

Thirdly, there's an argument about keeping it simple - OK, there are
now somewhat confusingly two definitions of Peak and Off-Peak in
operation w.r.t. Oyster, that of daily capping and separately that of
single fares - but the notion that morning peak journeys before 0930
count towards the Peak cap is arguably far simpler to communicate to
passengers.

Fourthly, Oyster daily capping rates shadow the prices of Day
Travelcards (the caps are all 50p less than the quasi-equivalent Day
Travelcard) - perhaps it's easier, simpler, or even necessary for the
Oyster Off-Peak daily caps to shadow the time restrictions of Off-Peak
Day Travelcards [1].

Fifthly (and connected to the last point), Oyster PAYG is being rolled
out across National Rail - if there was to be a two hour Off-Peak
capping window (0430-0630) in the morning that would presumably
require the agreement of the TOCs. This may well not be forthcoming -
TOCs aren't keen on reducing their potential revenue, and are also
rather wary of TfL and the Mayor dictating their fares (which is in a
sense what this would entail).
Also TOCs might be wary of implementing it because of the resulting
problems it might cause - in general mainline rail services don't get
going until a bit later than the Tube, so rail passengers might end up
frustrated in their efforts to slip in the Off-Peak window and
complete their journey before 0630, especially if a train was delayed
or cancelled.


One might say that some night workers might benefit from the 0430-0630
window being included in the Off-Peak cap, which is something I would
be sympathetic to if this was the case - but I'm far from sure that
that arguemnt stacks up... the reason being is, essentially people who
are travelling every day to work will either simply be paying single
Oyster PAYG fares (which are now cheaper pre-0630 on the Tube) or will
buy a period Travelcard, depending on which works out cheaper for them
- in other words regular (i.e. more or less daily) commuters simply
shouldn't be relying on daily capping for their normal journey,
because it will be more expensive for them.


-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

In message
,
Chris writes

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

They do. See: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx

"If the total cost of your journeys is less than the peak cap, you will
be charged separately for any journeys taken during peak hours, plus the
off-peak cap."

--
Paul Terry

On 4 Jan, 16:23, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Chris writes

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

They do. See:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx

"If the total cost of your journeys is less than the peak cap, you will
be charged separately for any journeys taken during peak hours, plus the
off-peak cap."


You've missed the OP's point - he is asking why Tube journeys between
0430 and 0630, which are charged at the Off-Peak Oyster single fare,
don't contribute to the Off-Peak cap as opposed to the Peak cap as
they are currently configured to do.

An example of the scenario Chris has in mind is someone who makes a
Tube journey between half-five and six in the morning, then doesn't
make any journeys in the 0630 to 0930 window, then makes further
journeys after that - he is asking why the pre-0630 journey couldn't
simply contribute to the Off-Peak cap.

In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

because it will be more expensive for them.


-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

Does anybody know a station which has operational gate lines about 05.00
and train services starting before 04.30? The 03.50 weekday service from
East Croydon which takes 3 changes (at Wimbledon, Waterloo and Waterloo
East) before arriving at London Bridge at 05.25 fits the time criterion.
Sadly, I have never seen operational gates at London Bridge after 22.00
and I don't suppose they are used before 06.00.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Jan 4, 5:26*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

because it will be more expensive for them.

-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.


See:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1055.aspx

especially the following paragraph.

"Anytime Day Travelcards

Can be used all day Monday to Friday, on the day of validity, and for
any journey that starts before 04:30 the following day. On public
holidays it is cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard."

Nothing about the ticket starting at 04.30, just that it is valid for
any departure upto 04.30 the following day. One-day travelcards are
printed with the date that they are valid for and I have once bought
one after midnight for validity all day. Ticket machines are not
generally programmed for issuing a ticket dated the previous day,
which is what would be required for validity starting at 04.30.


Does anybody know a station which has operational gate lines about 05.00
and train services starting before 04.30? The 03.50 weekday service from
East Croydon which takes 3 changes (at Wimbledon, Waterloo and Waterloo
East) before arriving at London Bridge at 05.25 fits the time criterion.
Sadly, I have never seen operational gates at London Bridge after 22.00
and I don't suppose they are used before 06.00.
--
Walter Briscoe

On 4 Jan, 17:26, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.


No quote to support that but how about personal experience instead?
I've had the foresight to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard a number of
times in order to take advantage of this at weekends (basically when I
know I'll need a Travelcard the next day to use National Rail trains)
- said tickets have been purchased after midnight from both National
Rail and London Underground ticket machines and have been issued with
the date or purchase, as opposed to the previous day's date. They have
been accepted as valid by LU ticket gates and by bus drivers (and I
think by a TfL bus RPI during a late night bendy bus ticket check, but
my memory of such things is a little hazy!).

Actually at least once I purchased a Day Travelcard for the same
reasons before midnight - Southern's (Shere) ticket machines allow one
to buy tickets for tomorrow after 4pm, as do those of other TOCs
(though I think Southeastern's S&B machines aren't quite as clever and
only offer 'tickets for tomorrow' between Sunday and Thursday, as the
next day is a normal weekday and hence the only non-season tickets on
offer are Anytime [i.e. peak] tickets - I suspect the reason being is
that they can't cope with the notion that 'tomorrow' might be either a
weekday or the weekend/a public holiday which has no morning peak
period).

That's without taking account of the fact that one can purchase a Day
Travelcard for tomorrow from rail and Tube station ticket offices and
from participating newsagents (not sure if any ticket offices get
difficult when it comes to selling Off-Peak Day Travelcards for the
next day when that day is a weekday, I seem to recall reading about
someone having trouble doing this but AIUI it's permitted under the
rules).

By the by I don't know why I singled out Off-Peak Day Travelcards as
having this potential 28 1/2 hour validity period, as it would apply
just as much to a Peak Day Travelcard too - these can similarly be
purchased after midnight from ticket machines, or indeed purchased
prior to midnight from some ticket machines too - or again simply
bought from a ticket office during opening hours.

Anyway I have now just found this TfL webpage about the validities of
Anytime and Off-Peak Travelcards which by my reading supports what I
have said (and indeed what I've actually done in the past):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1055.aspx

For the record I will quote the relevant bits:
---quote---
* Anytime Day Travelcards
Can be used all day Monday to Friday, on the day of validity, and for
any journey that starts before 04:30 the following day. On public
holidays it is cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard.

* Off-Peak Day Travelcards
Can be used from 09:30 Monday to Friday or all day Saturday, Sunday
and public holidays on the day of validity and for any journey that
starts before 04:30 on the following day.
---/quote---

On Jan 4, 4:45*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 4 Jan, 16:23, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Chris writes

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

They do. See:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx

"If the total cost of your journeys is less than the peak cap, you will
be charged separately for any journeys taken during peak hours, plus the
off-peak cap."

You've missed the OP's point - he is asking why Tube journeys between
0430 and 0630, which are charged at the Off-Peak Oyster single fare,
don't contribute to the Off-Peak cap as opposed to the Peak cap as
they are currently configured to do.

An example of the scenario Chris has in mind is someone who makes a
Tube journey between half-five and six in the morning, then doesn't
make any journeys in the 0630 to 0930 window, then makes further
journeys after that - he is asking why the pre-0630 journey couldn't
simply contribute to the Off-Peak cap.

It must be difficult to start enough journeys during the peak window
to ever hit the relevant peak cap in any case. The difference between
the peak and off-peak cap seems to be the price of one LU/DLR/train
journey in the relevant zones, which is pretty much all one is likely
to do in the time available, unless one gets a bus as well, in which
case there's the bus cap ...

On 4 Jan, 18:40, MIG wrote:

On Jan 4, 4:45*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 4 Jan, 16:23, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Chris writes

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

They do. See:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx

"If the total cost of your journeys is less than the peak cap, you will
be charged separately for any journeys taken during peak hours, plus the
off-peak cap."

You've missed the OP's point - he is asking why Tube journeys between
0430 and 0630, which are charged at the Off-Peak Oyster single fare,
don't contribute to the Off-Peak cap as opposed to the Peak cap as
they are currently configured to do.

An example of the scenario Chris has in mind is someone who makes a
Tube journey between half-five and six in the morning, then doesn't
make any journeys in the 0630 to 0930 window, then makes further
journeys after that - he is asking why the pre-0630 journey couldn't
simply contribute to the Off-Peak cap.

It must be difficult to start enough journeys during the peak window
to ever hit the relevant peak cap in any case. *The difference between
the peak and off-peak cap seems to be the price of one LU/DLR/train
journey in the relevant zones, which is pretty much all one is likely
to do in the time available, unless one gets a bus as well, in which
case there's the bus cap ...


It's hard to reach the Peak cap, though certainly not impossible - but
yes I agree with your basic point that for someone making a 'normal'
combination of journeys it seems unlikely that the Peak cap would be
reached. I suspect this is down to the divergence in prices between
Oyster single fares, which have been subject to an overall downward
trend, and the levels of Oyster daily price caps, which have been
subject to an upward trend - the latter because they have followed the
prices of their quasi-equivalent Day Travelcards minus 50p (the 50p
differential didn't exist in the first year of price capping but has
been present ever since).

The prices of all Travelcards (inc. the Day variety) have gone up by
the rate of inflation every year (in recent history anyway) - AIUI the
present arrangement is that the TOCs and TfL could agree to keep the
prices below the rate of inflation (fat chance of that ever happening
with the TOCs!), but if the TOCs and TfL agree they can raise it above
the rate of inflation. My understanding is that the former Mayor Ken
via TfL vetoed any Travelcard price rises above inflation, but for the
January 2009 fares revision (i..e what has just happened) the new
Mayor Boris agreed to requests from the TOCs for above inflation price
rises (which of course benefits TfL's revenues too).

Therefore, even taking account of the higher Oyster single fares, I
think I'm right in saying that the gap between the aforementioned
Oyster single fares and the Oyster daily caps (which shadow Day
Travelcard prices) has grown. This in turn contributes to the
increasingly unreachable level of Oyster Peak caps. (Is anyone still
with me?!)

Changing the focus slightly, it's interesting to note that one could
conceivably be subject to two separate caps in one day.
A rather obscure example of this would be a Peak z1&2 cap of £6.70,
and an Off-Peak z2-6 cap of £4.60 - the total being £11.30, three quid
less than the Peak z1-6 cap of £14.30 (ouch!).
A rather more likely example would be that of a £3.30 bus cap plus
another Off-Peak cap for Tube travel, such as £7 for an Off-Peak z1-6
cap - total being £10.30, four quid less than the Peak z1-6 cap of
£14.30.


-----
P.S. Sorry if my capitalisation of Peak and Off-Peak is irritating -
I'm purposefully doing it so as to emphasise that I'm specifically
referring daily price caps or Day Travelcards, as opposed to talking
about peak and off-peak periods in the abstract. Perhaps it's not
really that helpful!

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:26:19 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

Mizter T:
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. The guard was
very happy to sell it, but accidentally issued it for the next day. I
only found out when I tried to go through the gateline at Charing
Cross, where they told me that I would need to go back to Waterloo to
get it changed. I intend to complain about that - it's an RSP ticket
after all - but anyway...

My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. It may
of course be keeping the gate config simple, rather than a statement
of policy... With a minute to go to get my train at Waterloo, I
didn't hang around to discuss the conditions of carriage!

Richard.