On Jun 25, 3:57*pm, "Recliner" wrote:
"John B" wrote in message







On Jun 25, 1:26 pm, wrote:
In article
,

(John B) wrote:
On Jun 25, 11:48 am, wrote:
The Wimbleware/Circle combination gives a one-change route between
Putney and King's Cross, avoiding humping child's buggy or heavy
luggage up and down footbridge stairs any more than necessary
(can't be avoided at East Putney). It's pretty reliable for same
platform interchange. Can't do that under new arrangements, and
that was true before they started cutting Wimbledon trains back
from Edgware Road to High St to add extra changes too.

One-change route: Putney - Earls Court - lift - Piccadilly line
-
Kings Cross - [lift from next year / escalator + lift with no
stairs now]

What exactly is the interchange at Earl's Court? AIUI the lifts are
some way apart and either serve the District platforms (two lifts)
or the Piccadilly platforms. Sounds a very long way from a same
platform interchange to me.

There's a lift from the Piccadilly platforms direct to the District
platforms. Not quite same-platform (although as mentioned upthread if
you really need same-platform there's always the option of an
Upminster train and a change to a Circle in the City), but not too
heinous either.

Where is it? *I use that interchange (escalator+stairs) from time to
time, and have never noticed a lift option.

It's possible that my brain was entirely frazzled by jetlag, but I'm
*sure* I was pleasantly surprised to find a direct lift from the Picc
platforms to the District platforms when changing at EC on a return
trip from Heathrow last year. If I'm wrong then Colin's closer to
right than I thought.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 25, 2:15*pm, Chris wrote:

On 25 June, 09:41, wrote:

With the gap in just the wrong place if you want to get through
Edgware Road! :-((

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem,
which unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.

Yes, I certainly agree that this is one of the biggest issues with the
whole Teacup line plan - the crowding of the H&C line iplatforms. The
H&C line platforms at Paddington isn't really somewhere I've ended up
at much during the midst of the peak, so I can't attest to the
crowding of the island platform itself, however I've certainly seen
the congestion on the sole staircase that leads from the island
platform to the overbridge (especially if two trains going in opposite
directions arrive more or less at the same time but I think it's still
fairly apparent with just one train). There are people struggling up
the staircase with bags, and others at the top trying to weave their
way down to the platforms against the crowd surging their way up.
After getting off an H&C train recently I stayed at the back of the
queue and watched just to see how long it took for the platform and
staircase to clear - and I asked the member of staff at the base of
the stairs whether it's always as busy, to which they responded very
much in the affirmative.

I don't quite understand how FGW giving up a platform would help
matters... unless they were to surrender platform 14 to LU, which
could then become the eastbound Circle/Teacup platform. That would of
course involve some fairly significant works to realign the LU running
lines, and I'm pretty sure FGW could afford to give up a platform at
Paddington anyway could they?

I read the request as for platform space rather than an actual platform. I
guess they need room for another staircase and maybe for widening the LU
island.

Once Crossrail comes, then there will be more room for manoeuvre at
Paddington as many of the suburban services will transfer to Crossrail
and hence won't need high-level platforms. Plus Crossrail would of
course take some of the pressure off LU at Paddington anyway, as pax
stayed on their Crossrail train to reach further into central London
or across into the City and beyond. So maybe the Teacup line plan is
rather before its time, and would be better suited to a post-Crossrail
London?

With the growth expected by then, will Crossrail do more than cope with
that growth?

Well, well, well, it's a bit late in the day to realise all this, isn't it?

However, I thought the teacup doubled the H&C frequency between Edgware
Road and Hammersmith or have I missed some thing? How much will that help
with the platform capacity issue?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message
,
at 05:00:54 on Thu, 25 Jun 2009, John B remarked:
The Wimbleware/Circle combination gives a one-change route between
Putney and King's Cross, avoiding humping child's buggy or heavy
luggage up and down footbridge stairs any more than necessary
(can't be avoided at East Putney). It's pretty reliable for same
platform interchange. Can't do that under new arrangements, and
that was true before they started cutting Wimbledon trains back
from Edgware Road to High St to add extra changes too.

One-change route: Putney - Earls Court - lift - Piccadilly line

Is that lift available from the District platforms. I seem to
recall it going from the upper (Eastern) concourse.

The District platforms now have lifts to a footbridge across to the
walkway along the North Western wall of the trainshed. That gives you a
level but far from short link to the ticket office level which is the top
landing of the Piccadilly lifts.

Kings Cross - [lift from next year

It's two lifts - one up to the barrier level, then the current lift
to the surface (outdoors, far from the station). Or they are also
putting in a "three lifts" solution - an extra one between the
barrier level and concourse, then a choice of lifts to various
points at ground level.

Won't there be a route with lifts to the new Northern ticket hall?

/ escalator + lift with no stairs now]

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote in message

In article
,
(John B) wrote:

On Jun 25, 11:48 am, wrote:
The Wimbleware/Circle combination gives a one-change route between
Putney and King's Cross, avoiding humping child's buggy or heavy
luggage up and down footbridge stairs any more than necessary
(can't be avoided at East Putney). It's pretty reliable for same
platform interchange. Can't do that under new arrangements, and
that was true before they started cutting Wimbledon trains back
from Edgware Road to High St to add extra changes too.

One-change route: Putney - Earls Court - lift - Piccadilly line
-
Kings Cross - [lift from next year / escalator + lift with no stairs
now]

What exactly is the interchange at Earl's Court? AIUI the lifts are
some way apart and either serve the District platforms (two lifts) or
the Piccadilly platforms. Sounds a very long way from a same platform
interchange to me.

Presumably Picc platform levelliftconcourseliftDistrict
platform level

Indeed. Quite a hike! And up one level more than needed and down one again.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(John B) wrote:

It's possible that my brain was entirely frazzled by jetlag, but I'm
*sure* I was pleasantly surprised to find a direct lift from the Picc
platforms to the District platforms when changing at EC on a return
trip from Heathrow last year. If I'm wrong then Colin's closer to
right than I thought.

I can't think where that lift is then. I thought the lifts on the District
platforms only went up to the footbridge and the lift from the Piccadilly
was the modern version of the originals whose upper landing is at ticket
hall level. Unless the lifts on the District platforms also go down to the
Piccadilly?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jun 25, 4:16*pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 25, 2:15*pm, Chris wrote:

[snip]

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem,
which unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.

Yes, I certainly agree that this is one of the biggest issues with the
whole Teacup line plan - the crowding of the H&C line platforms. The
H&C line platforms at Paddington isn't really somewhere I've ended up
at much during the midst of the peak, so I can't attest to the
crowding of the island platform itself, however I've certainly seen
the congestion on the sole staircase that leads from the island
platform to the overbridge (especially if two trains going in opposite
directions arrive more or less at the same time but I think it's still
fairly apparent with just one train). There are people struggling up
the staircase with bags, and others at the top trying to weave their
way down to the platforms against the crowd surging their way up.
After getting off an H&C train recently I stayed at the back of the
queue and watched just to see how long it took for the platform and
staircase to clear - and I asked the member of staff at the base of
the stairs whether it's always as busy, to which they responded very
much in the affirmative.

I don't quite understand how FGW giving up a platform would help
matters... unless they were to surrender platform 14 to LU, which
could then become the eastbound Circle/Teacup platform. That would of
course involve some fairly significant works to realign the LU running
lines, and I'm pretty sure FGW could afford to give up a platform at
Paddington anyway could they?

I read the request as for platform space rather than an actual platform. I
guess they need room for another staircase and maybe for widening the LU
island.

OK. Not quite sure how it'd work.


Once Crossrail comes, then there will be more room for manoeuvre at
Paddington as many of the suburban services will transfer to Crossrail
and hence won't need high-level platforms. Plus Crossrail would of
course take some of the pressure off LU at Paddington anyway, as pax
stayed on their Crossrail train to reach further into central London
or across into the City and beyond. So maybe the Teacup line plan is
rather before its time, and would be better suited to a post-Crossrail
London?

With the growth expected by then, will Crossrail do more than cope with
that growth?

Erm, I think it's a bit more complicated than just looking at it like
that. Travel patterns will change with Crossrail, placing less of a
demand on Paddington as an interchange location.


Well, well, well, it's a bit late in the day to realise all this, isn't it?

Er, its not like LU have just realised this. We've discussed this
issue several times beforehand on utl. The LU planners will of course
be aware of the knock-on effects of the Teacup line plan, including
the effects on Paddington - I assume they don't think it's a show-
stopper. I'd (obviously) be interested to hear of the inside track on
this.


However, I thought the teacup doubled the H&C frequency between Edgware
Road and Hammersmith or have I missed some thing? How much will that help
with the platform capacity issue?

Yes, frequency would be doubled, which would presumably help matters.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Well, well, well, it's a bit late in the day to realise all this,
isn't it?

Er, its not like LU have just realised this. We've discussed this
issue several times beforehand on utl. The LU planners will of course
be aware of the knock-on effects of the Teacup line plan, including
the effects on Paddington - I assume they don't think it's a show-
stopper. I'd (obviously) be interested to hear of the inside track on
this.

I have to say, as a utl regular, this was seriously news to me and I'm one
of (I suspect) a small minority here who might be directly affected. I'd
have thought I'd have noticed any such threads.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Recliner wrote:

I assume the other option to 'break the Circle' would be to make use of
the vacated FCC tracks at Barbican to provide a (turnback) siding or
additional platform for Circle line trains. This might, for example, be
used to hold a spare train to be deployed if the there's a big gap in
Circle services, with one of the bunched trains then replacing it there.

Baker Street to Moorgate is one of the most congested sections of track and
may not be able to take the extra trains involved. Also reversing at
Moorgate involves crossing the tracks from the other direction and opens up
all manner of delay risks.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message

Recliner wrote:

I assume the other option to 'break the Circle' would be to make use
of the vacated FCC tracks at Barbican to provide a (turnback) siding
or additional platform for Circle line trains. This might, for
example, be used to hold a spare train to be deployed if the there's
a big gap in Circle services, with one of the bunched trains then
replacing it there.

Baker Street to Moorgate is one of the most congested sections of
track and may not be able to take the extra trains involved. Also
reversing at Moorgate involves crossing the tracks from the other
direction and opens up all manner of delay risks.

I was thinking of moving the inner Circle roue to the former widened
lines tracks, with the current inner Circle becoming the siding/extra
track.

In message , at 10:16:09
on Thu, 25 Jun 2009, remarked:
Kings Cross - [lift from next year

It's two lifts - one up to the barrier level, then the current lift
to the surface (outdoors, far from the station). Or they are also
putting in a "three lifts" solution - an extra one between the
barrier level and concourse, then a choice of lifts to various
points at ground level.

Won't there be a route with lifts to the new Northern ticket hall?

Urgh. I was getting Northern and Piccadilly lines confused.

The lift from the Piccadilly (and also the Victoria) will emerge into
the passage between the Northern Ticket Hall and the old Thameslink
Station. (I discovered last week that the exit there has limited opening
hours).

In each case the lift will be quite short, bypassing a small flight of
stairs.

If you follow the passage north-west, it will eventually meet the
*bottom* of the main escalators down from the Northern ticket hall.

A long lift will by-pass those escalators, but only up as far as the
northern ticket barrier/concourse level. You'll need a third short lift
to get to ground level.

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-com...with-lifts.jpg
--
Roland Perry