On Jul 3, 9:27*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:02 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

You're the troll.

I've often been called that in the past. *But right now I'm not arguing
purely to cause trouble, but out of a genuine desire to give the facts
for the other side of the argument.

Whilst simultaneously deciding your 'side of the argument' is the only
one there is. But it's pretty clear you're trolling.


And what the hell is this about being an "Oyster-
apologist" - what on earth is that meant to mean?

I don't know. *To be honest, I'm not very good at insults. *That was the
best I could manage.

Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last
few years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past
few years, that's who!

That doesn't make you Martin though does it.

No, but if does make me sceptical when his experience is 100% opposite
from mine.

For example, if your personal experience tells you that water is wet,
you'd get very suspicious if someone claimed they'd only been using dry
water for years and then started ranting about how it was not fair that
they were forced to use wet water on a recent visit to Ilford.

In which case you are obviously completely failing to empathise with
other people who's life is rather different from yours. There are some
people who only go for walks in the country, for example.

If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.

In which case you are as blinkered as you're trying to paint Martin.

So what? *We're all blinkered in our own different ways.

See my above point - yes, we might all see the world from our angle,
but you are wilfully failing to even imagine seeing it from any other
perspective.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. I'm glad you're finally seeing that.

What is this "most journeys" - you haven't actually defined what you
mean. Most people would I think take it to mean the majority of
journeys that are made. You now appear to be backpeddling to justify
your earlier comments by defining it as meaning all possible journeys
between any two stations in London. OK, *if* that's the definition
you're using then yes, I'd think paper tickets are required for the
majority of them.

I'm sorry if it looked like backpedalling. *That wasn't my intention. *I
probably should've explained earlier what I meant.

At least for one off travel - but for daily commutes, I dare say a
fair number of people make use of season Travelcards as the NR leg is
part of a longer journey. (And season Travelcards that don't include
z1 are actually quite good value. And of course any season Travelcard
can be bought on Oyster.)

Ok. *I keep forgeting about season Travelcards. But there's nothing
_specifically_ Oysterish since you can get them on paper like normal
point-to-point seasons.

Except there *is* a distinct advantage of having a season Travelcard
loaded on Oyster. If you have, for example, a zones 4-6 Travelcard and
live in say Epping, then you can just use that Oyster card to Travel
into central London/ zone 1 on the Central line with no fuss - the
extension fare is automatically deducted from your Oyster PAYG
balance.

The same situation applies to someone with say a zones 1-3 Travelcard,
who wants to travel out to Heathrow on the Piccadilly line.

Obviously, this only works on lines which accept Oyster PAYG - but
that does include the whole Underground network.


Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones
that you already use for your daily commute. No use at all for
heading in the opposite direction, getting away from the built up
areas and the crowds.

Agreed. But that hardly makes Oyster useless.

I'll have to take your word for that, since I don't have much experience
with Travelcard seasons.

Even when I worked in central London, the offices were all in walking
distance of either Victoria, Blackfriars or London Bridge so a simple
point-to-point to London Terminals did the job. *In fact, the last time
I used a Travelcard season was nearly 20 years ago!

Still I suppose there must be people who find Travelcard seasons useful
for their journeys. *But if my experience is anything like typical,
there can't be that many of them.

In which case you definitely are a troll! Travelcard seasons are, as
you know, very very popular.

(That's not to say that NR point-to-point seasons are not useful - of
course they are - but actually, Oyster PAYG makes them even more
useful, as NR season ticket holders can turn up at a London termini
and then easily make occasional Tube journeys with no fuss.)


(And any Travelcard is good for any London bus.)

I already admited Oyster is good for buses.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay
for a good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is
completely useless for most journeys, since there's hardly
anything of it south of the river. So there's still the need
for a paper ticket to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.

OK, so your "most journey" definition does now appear to be "all
possible journeys between any two stations in London". Thanks for
clearing that up.

"Now?" *It was that all along!

It was far from clear (to me at least) that that was the definition
you were using earlier on.


The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New
Barnet or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or
Gordon Hill or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river"
places I've caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a
result of walking the various stretches of the London Loop and
Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a
very few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places
that I actually want to go to.

You'll notice that on the few occasions when I did switch from all
possible journeys to examples of journeys that were actually made, I did
make it very clear that's what I was doing.

And they're all perfectly legit examples of where Oyster PAYG is no
use, I agree.


Balls. It's useful (aka "magnificent) in a *great many* areas north of
the river. But it's all about you of course.

Well, I can only draw on my own experience for examples.

But you can't imagine other people's experience though.


I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London
will move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation.
But the real situation on the ground over the past few years.
You're the one that brought up the subject of the past few years.
Don't try to wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

And then what will you have to rant about?

Hopefully nothing. *But unfortunately, there'll probably be something.
Public transport always goes out of it's way to be as crap as possible.

With a positive attitude like that...


Yes, but just because it isn't useful for you hardly makes it a "white
elephant", as you said elsewhere. Unless the world revolves around
you. In which case we must redraw the solar system.

Why do you think I call myself the _solar_ penguin?

Quite!

I think this particular strand of the discussion has probably been
exhausted, so I think I'll leave it at that!

On Jul 4, 10:13*am, John B wrote:

On Jul 4, 10:02*am, John B wrote:

Agreed. It's masking a more serious point though: if you don't live in
South-London-outside-z2, then you'll probably never go there, because
- while lots of fabulous people live excellent lives, contribute to
the community, pay their taxes, etc - there is nothing of much
interest to outsiders there. Except possibly Greenwich, which is on
the DLR.

I had a footnote here which said "the same is pretty much true for
North London outside z3", but it got lost in editing. The point is not
that South London is crap, it's that while there are plenty of
perfectly likeable towns in outer suburbia with pretty parks, decent
bars, nice restaurants, interesting shops, etc, in all of outer
London, there is nothing that compares to the draw of z1-2 when it
comes to history, culture or nightlife.

However, if I lived in z4-6 non-Tube South London, I'd probably have a
point-to-point rail season ticket. And if I didn't go out in town much
(or at least, didn't venture far from Victoria, Charing Cross and
Cannon Street when I did), then that's quite possibly all I'd have,
especially if I'd lived there since pre-Oyster days and wasn't used to
the whole Oyster concept.

Just following up on this one - as someone who grew up in suburban GE
land and then suburban SW land, I don't think I've ever fully
appreciated the difference that living on the south-central and south-
eastern routes has from all other commuter routes until thinking about
it just now: for most of central London's workplaces, cultural centres
and historical attractions, you don't actually need anything more than
one point-to-point season ticket. And you don't actually ever need to
use the Tube, which is something that I've tended to view as a
unifying force between suburban commuters and inner-London dwellers...

OK, there's some rather more reasoned arguments there. (And whilst I
might protest if I was to be accused of being a little overly-
defensive in other replies, I suspect my protests might be ignored! So
let me engage in some more reasoned debate here...)

I think you're perhaps a good example of the inner-London dweller
whose lifestyle doesn't really take you out of zones 1&2 - dare I
suggest, you were perhaps the 'Ken Livingstone as zone 1 Mayor' voter
that was the antithesis of the Boris push for outer-London votes
(which isn't to say that people in inner-London didn't vote Boris in
large numbers, as they sure did) - not quite phrased how I mean it,
but you get where I'm coming from. And don't get me wrong - I know
many people like you. But I also know other people who are more
'suburbanite', for want of a better phrase. And I'm occasionally
frustrated by the inner Londoners' lack of willing to branch out and
do something different.

In a sense Londoners are villagers - they know their village, they
know 'the centre' (FSVO 'centre'), they know some other villages - but
I'd suggest a great number are totally ignorant of other parts of
(that's not meant to be a pejorative statement, just a description).
Which is why I think walks like the London Loop and Capital Ring are
actually pretty good - they give you a flavour of areas you might
otherwise never know.

There are a multitude of hidden gems in London's 'hinterland' that I'd
suggest really are worth a visit. Sometimes that bit of local
knowledge can make such trips all the better - e.g. the splendid
little museum followed by the truly excellent little tapas bar round
the corner, or some such. Such little adventures can be rather good
fun and enriching.

I suppose we could compile a list of at least a few such places...
though it is the kind of thing that Diamond Geezer and Ian Visits and
others engage in on their weblogs, to a certain extent at least. I
might kick it off but for the fact I'm tight on time... so maybe
another day.

On 4 July, 10:13, John B wrote:


However, if I lived in z4-6 non-Tube South London, I'd probably have a
point-to-point rail season ticket. And if I didn't go out in town much
(or at least, didn't venture far from Victoria, Charing Cross and
Cannon Street when I did), then that's quite possibly all I'd have,
especially if I'd lived there since pre-Oyster days and wasn't used to
the whole Oyster concept.

Just following up on this one - as someone who grew up in suburban GE
land and then suburban SW land, I don't think I've ever fully
appreciated the difference that living on the south-central and south-
eastern routes has from all other commuter routes until thinking about
it just now: for most of central London's workplaces, cultural centres
and historical attractions, you don't actually need anything more than
one point-to-point season ticket. And you don't actually ever need to
use the Tube, which is something that I've tended to view as a
unifying force between suburban commuters and inner-London dwellers...

Actually, as I think Mizter T has just mentioned elsewhere, the point
to point season has a new life under Oyster. In the past I toyed with
the idea, even when not usually using the Underground on the commute,
but it was never quite worth it when I considered the occasional
journeys plus need for day travelcards at weekends, partly duplicating
the season etc.

It still isn't very helpful when, for example, needing to go to
Twickenham with a point to point from the south east. A travelcard
might have covered it, and Oyster doesn't help yet, so one is left
needing a return from Waterloo.

If you lived in the same zone on the other side, eg Bexleyheath, a 7
day travelcard would be £44 with total flexibility. A point to point
to London Terminals would be £31.80.

But add to that a return journey Waterloo to Twickenham on Saturday at
£5.30 plus a couple of £1 bus journeys on Sunday plus a few £1.50s
when you need to go to a meeting in a different office on Wednesday
and go to a bar across central London after work on Friday ... and
before long the £31.80 has become £45.10 and the flexibility of a
travelcard that covers all of it at £44 becomes very attractive.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

In your case however, given the very low usage, it perhaps wouldn't
really be of any significant benefit. (Just another company with whom
you have to update your credit/debit card details when you get a
replacement card!)

That's about the size of it. I do keep a minimum balance on my card, £1.60
these days, so I don't have to join the horrendous queues for tickets at
King's Cross.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
, at
00:20:13 on Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Mizter T remarked:
(Just another company with whom you have to update your credit/debit
card details when you get a replacement card!)

Getting a combined Oyster/Barclaycard might solve that isolated issue.

--
Roland Perry

Just to chime in with my 2p....

I have a z1-5 Travelcard on Oyster, but live outside London, in
Bushey. That card will get me by bus to Edgware, Stanmore, or H&W, and
thence all around London. Given that I generally use the LM trains
from H&W, it's really reasonably cheaper than the equivalent paper
tickets, even more so once you factor in the buses, and has the added
bonus of when I'm coming home and want to go all the way out to Bushey
or Watford, I don't have to buy bloody annoying extension tickets any
more thanks to PaYG being valid out that far. It also gets me all the
way out to places like Croydon, which makes trips to places down south
(Brighton, etc) *much* cheaper.

....only downside is now that whenever I meet up with friends in town,
I'm the one having to go wherever they are as my travel is effectively
free

John B wrote:

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

Trolling aside (which is hardly your style) - Dulwich Picture Gallery.
Down House.


--
Current nearest station: Bicester Town

MIG wrote:

Oh no they [Oyster based seasons] aren't, and the **** is going to hit
the fan soon, since
ATOC and London Travelwatch are clearly gettting nowhere.

Do tell?

The trouble with all this is that the arguments are about prefering
Oyster or not, which is a complete red herring. Oyster is just a
storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else someone thinks of
putting in it, as are my trousers.

fx:spills coffee on leg storage medium


--
Current nearest station: Bicester Town (if that counts these days)

In message
, at
16:29:27 on Fri, 3 Jul 2009, MIG remarked:
Oyster is just a storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else
someone thinks of putting in it, as are my trousers.

The daily capping would be hard to administer any other way, so I think
it does add some value that your trousers don't.
--
Roland Perry

On 4 July, 13:39, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
16:29:27 on Fri, 3 Jul 2009, MIG remarked:

Oyster is just a storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else
someone thinks of putting in it, as are my trousers.

The daily capping would be hard to administer any other way, so I think
it does add some value that your trousers don't.

No one has ever cast such an aspersion on my trousers before. I
should call you out sir.