Mizter T wrote:


No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)


What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.



I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.


I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
stuff. That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
dozen bus tickets for only a quid!

Point proven!


What point? Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

That reminds me of another advantage of paper tickects. If I want to go
somewhere in North London, I can get a Z2-6 ODTC, change to the tube at
Balham or Vauxhall, and travel through Z1 knowing the chance of an
on-train ticket inspection is pretty much zero. When Oyster PAYG
becomes standard, I won't be able to do that any more.


FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

On Jul 3, 7:44*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left..
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.

Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

Yes, Auto Top-up is fantastic - but it's not for everyone. There's a
great many people who's finances are fairly chaotic, or even just very
tight - and money being taken just like that wouldn't really work out
too well.

Also, you'll only get a 'proper' Record card if you buy from an LU
station ticket office. LU ticket machines issue a printed receipt -
the big ones issue the receipt on blank LU ticket stock, the smaller
ones on a roll of white thermal paper. And "Oyster Ticket Stops" only
issue receipts on a roll of white thermal paper (the same as a credit/
debit card receipt chit). Regardless, it's a visual record of when
you're good to go up until.

On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

Taxi? Make sure you top-up first! Minicab? Agree the damn fare first!
(Dodgy minicab - presumably not!)

Congestion charge? I did think about how Oyster could be hooked up
into the CC system somehow. Parking charges? I suppose Oyster could be
useful in paying for parking.

Too much motorised vehicular stuff for you? Well then how about the
upcoming Cycle Hire scheme? I recall Boris talking about just that -
but I'm not quite sure I can see how it'd work what with the need to
secure a deposit/access to a deposit (i.e. via a credit card).

Walking... err... shoe shops perhaps? On-street foot massage?

Skateboarding... err... paying fines to PCSOs for doing it where one
shouldn't be doing it perhaps?

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?

Extension from Boundary Zone 6 to Paris on Eurostar? ...to New York on
Virgin Atlantic?

In message
Mizter T wrote:


On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

[snip]

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?


Is Oyster valid on the river buses?

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Jul 3, 8:01*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

Agreed. Just as South West Trains, taken in isolation, is also
"completely useless for most journeys", etc etc.


(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)

What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.

OK. However given you originally said "Given that Oyster is still
completely useless on most journeys", a reasonable person might well
take that to mean the majority of journeys that are actually made - as
opposed to all possible journeys in London.


I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.

I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. *I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

I guess I'm bracketed as an "Oyster enthusiast" - fine, if that
pleases you. I think it's very useful, I think it's revolutionised
things on the routes/modes *where it is available* - which is why I'm
very enthusiastic, and *always have been*, for it to be rolled out
across NR in London.

Apart from anything else, I genuinely think it will encourage people
to venture further afield.


You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
stuff. That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.

Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.

It's *definitely* going to happen. I'd put a massive wager on that, if
such a bet was actually possible. Oyster readers, sitting as yet
unused and all wrapped up, have been installed at a great many NR
station in Greater London - and the installation programme is ongoing.
The TOCs are not only committed in principle, they're in the midst of
heavy negotiations about it. Central government is decisively in
favour. The Mayor obviously is, as was the former Mayor, as
(obviously) is TfL.

Where we're at now is the end-game. It's gone on for a whole lot
bloody longer than anyone would have wanted or desired, because what's
at stake is big money. But there's no chance it's simply not going to
happen. No chance at all whatsoever. It's just a question of when. I'd
say "some time next year", nothing more specific than that.

Earlier you spoke about "these groups" - being these newsgroups -
well, if you popped in every now and again, or searched back through
the archives, you'll find much comment - some of it actually informed
- on the whole issue of the long, slow process of bringing Oyster PAYG
to NR.

But if you're not interested in what the situation on the ground is
going to be in the future, or why it's taking so long to get there,
fare enough.

(I'm afraid I feel almost compelled to use that ultra-naff pun over
and over again, sorry!)


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
dozen bus tickets for only a quid!

Point proven!

What point? *Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

Eh? My point was that Saver tickets allow fraud. Not only that, but it
actually happened - see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4379620.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7071356.stm

You think ticketing systems should be designed specifically so as to
make fraud easier then? Interesting.

(And yes I liked Saver tickets - but then I moved over onto Oyster
PAYG. Savers were useful for occasional bus travellers, no doubt, or
for large parties travelling together - indeed they still are, as
existing ones are still valid for use. However it seems that
usefulness came at too great a potential cost. Shame, but if people
are going to scam the system...)


FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. *The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

Yeah, thinking about it, I now realise you're absolutely right -
forget about it, it's a white elephant after all, all those millions
of people who happily use Oyster and find it convenient are obviously
total mugs, because whilst it suits them it doesn't suit a certain
"solar penguin".

You were trying to somehow argue that you weren't being a troll
earlier. How's that going?

On Jul 3, 8:36*pm, rail wrote:

In message
* * * * * Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

[snip]

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?

Is Oyster valid on the river buses?

Not to pay for river buses, no. However Travelcard holders - including
those loaded on Oyster - can get a third off scheduled riverboat
services - this discount has existed for some time.

Boris meanwhile has been making noises about getting Oyster 'accepted
on river buses' - i.e. to pay for them. We'll see where that goes -
though in terms of advantages, I can't see any particularly great
ones, as one is on board river buses long enough to pay for them
without any hassle (you don't have to pay on entry) - and whilst
they're not that expensive, they're not that cheap either - i.e.
they're a good step up from a London Tube or bus fare.

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:02 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

You're the troll.

I've often been called that in the past. But right now I'm not arguing
purely to cause trouble, but out of a genuine desire to give the facts
for the other side of the argument.

And what the hell is this about being an "Oyster-
apologist" - what on earth is that meant to mean?


I don't know. To be honest, I'm not very good at insults. That was the
best I could manage.


Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last
few years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past
few years, that's who!

That doesn't make you Martin though does it.


No, but if does make me sceptical when his experience is 100% opposite
from mine.

For example, if your personal experience tells you that water is wet,
you'd get very suspicious if someone claimed they'd only been using dry
water for years and then started ranting about how it was not fair that
they were forced to use wet water on a recent visit to Ilford.


If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.

In which case you are as blinkered as you're trying to paint Martin.


So what? We're all blinkered in our own different ways.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. I'm glad you're finally seeing that.

What is this "most journeys" - you haven't actually defined what you
mean. Most people would I think take it to mean the majority of
journeys that are made. You now appear to be backpeddling to justify
your earlier comments by defining it as meaning all possible journeys
between any two stations in London. OK, *if* that's the definition
you're using then yes, I'd think paper tickets are required for the
majority of them.

I'm sorry if it looked like backpedalling. That wasn't my intention. I
probably should've explained earlier what I meant.


At least for one off travel - but for daily commutes, I dare say a
fair number of people make use of season Travelcards as the NR leg is
part of a longer journey. (And season Travelcards that don't include
z1 are actually quite good value. And of course any season Travelcard
can be bought on Oyster.)

Ok. I keep forgeting about season Travelcards. Butthere's nothing
_specifically_ Oysterish since you can get them on paper like normal
point-to-point seasons.


Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones
that you already use for your daily commute. No use at all for
heading in the opposite direction, getting away from the built up
areas and the crowds.

Agreed. But that hardly makes Oyster useless.

I'll have to take your word for that, since I don't have much experience
with Travelcard seasons.

Even when I worked in central London, the offices were all in walking
distance of either Victoria, Blackfriars or London Bridge so a simple
point-to-point to London Terminals did the job. In fact, the last time
I used a Travelcard season was nearly 20 years ago!

Still I suppose there must be people who find Travelcard seasons useful
for their journeys. But if my experience is anything like typical,
there can't be that many of them.

(And any Travelcard is good for any London bus.)


I already admited Oyster is good for buses.


I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for
a good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is
completely useless for most journeys, since there's hardly
anything of it south of the river. So there's still the need
for a paper ticket to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.

OK, so your "most journey" definition does now appear to be "all
possible journeys between any two stations in London". Thanks for
clearing that up.


"Now?" It was that all along!

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New
Barnet or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or
Gordon Hill or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river"
places I've caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a
result of walking the various stretches of the London Loop and
Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a
very few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places
that I actually want to go to.

You'll notice that on the few occasions when I did switch from all
possible journeys to examples of journeys that were actually made, I did
make it very clear that's what I was doing.


Balls. It's useful (aka "magnificent) in a *great many* areas north of
the river. But it's all about you of course.


Well, I can only draw on my own experience for examples.


I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London
will move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation.
But the real situation on the ground over the past few years.
You're the one that brought up the subject of the past few years.
Don't try to wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

And then what will you have to rant about?


Hopefully nothing. But unfortunately, there'll probably be something.
Public transport always goes out of it's way to be as crap as possible.


Yes, but just because it isn't useful for you hardly makes it a "white
elephant", as you said elsewhere. Unless the world revolves around
you. In which case we must redraw the solar system.

Why do you think I call myself the _solar_ penguin?

Mizter T wrote:


And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
throw oneself into the fray too.

That's Ok. The whole point of a group like this is to present the truth
as you see it. The more people presenting their truths the better.

On Jul 3, 5:52*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.

The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
just happens to be. *Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
hard time imagining this ever coming about.

As do many others. As I said in elsewhere at (boring) length, it's
coming. However, there's very good reason for being sceptical, if not
downright cynical - it's been coming for a very long time. However I
reckon it'll arrive sometime in 2010.

On 3 July, 18:53, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all. I do
however agree that people shouldn't cut themselves off from places
they don't know - there's a lot of richness of life out there not too
far away, and I'd always urge people to live on the adventurous side.
So don't start trying to say I was talking about no-go areas, as I
clearly wasn't.

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper -

Oh no they aren't, and the **** is going to hit the fan soon, since
ATOC and London Travelwatch are clearly gettting nowhere.

and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

The trouble with all this is that the arguments are about prefering
Oyster or not, which is a complete red herring. Oyster is just a
storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else someone thinks of
putting in it, as are my trousers.

The issue for me is the way that TfL and the TOCs refuse to
acknowledge, or implement simple solutions to, the problems and
inconveniences that arise from the introduction of new systems,
preferring to use each other's punters as hostages in their political
games. I really object to that.