On 3 July, 17:33, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to
say, given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS
due to always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top
up on my Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to
buy a ticket to cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to
Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. *Like a room with a padded cell.


Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock. Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years". If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. *Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.



and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. *It's
totally useless otherwise. *And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE. Millions of people do this,
making it VERY VERY USEFUL. But you don't, so it's useless. Obviously.



I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. *So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. *But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. *I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) *But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too. The
Oystercard is magnificent north of the river. I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it.

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

On Jul 3, 5:44*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 15:45, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[BIG snip]

There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

(The "calmly take it all in ones stride" point above was directed at
how the RPIs should do their jobs, BTW - though I suppose the same
advice might as well apply to someone being subjected to an RPI
inquisition.)


Lots of very fair points, as I would expect from the esteemed
poster

My real beef is that it has often looked as though WAGN (and probably
others) have made it as difficult as possible to actually buy a ticket
(very very poor ticket machines which were slow as hell, unintuitive
and liable to swallow your card, combined with largely unstaffed
stations), and refusing allow people to buy their tickets on the
train.

When I lived back up north, the norm on north west trains was that
there would be a guard on all trains who would sell you a ticket on
the train, no questions asked (maybe it's not any more, but it seemed
to work well enough then) - this seemed like a perfectly sensible
option, and to see such poor facilities combined with aggressive and
nasty staff who would give no leeway in the event of queues at the
ticket office or ticket machines (and honestly, I wouldn't have been
too happy to have to put my card in the machines....) I know there has
to be some sort of deterrent to fare dodgers, but the zero tolerance
approach can leave a bad taste in the event of genuinely
understandable circumstances.

Cripes... well, you're touching on an awful lot of issues there. I
agree that it seems the TOCs sometimes seem to want to play it both
ways. The more general point about compulsory ticket areas - aka
Penalty Fares areas - well, they're a fairly well established concept.
I'm not sure if London Underground implementing this pre-dates British
Rail - perhaps someone can help with the history.

The argument in favour is I suppose that situation is meant to be
unambiguous (i.e. buy ticket before travelling) - and given the busy
and at peak times rather crowded nature of suburban rail services in
and around London, I don't think the 'pay train' concept - that's
paying a conductor/guard on board - would be remotely workable in most
cases. Indeed I don't think it ever really was adopted - even
stretching back in history - apart from on a few lines such as the
'Goblin', where UIVMM 'pay on train' was in place until LO took over
and equipped stations with ticket machines - not sure if there are
Permit to Travel machines there too but I don't think so.

(SWT's Hounslow Loop line was also excluded from the PF scheme until
quite recently - but my experience was that guard's didn't really seem
to go in for doing 'revenue duties' aka selling tickets on board -
what were others experiences?)

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all. I do
however agree that people shouldn't cut themselves off from places
they don't know - there's a lot of richness of life out there not too
far away, and I'd always urge people to live on the adventurous side.
So don't start trying to say I was talking about no-go areas, as I
clearly wasn't.

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper - and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.


Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Martin Petrov wrote:


Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.


Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. I'm glad you're finally seeing that.


Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?


There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.


No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. (And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.


Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. Congratulations. But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

On Jul 3, 6:23*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 5:33 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:

[snip]

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys,
I'm amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without
needing a paper ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that
time?

In London?

No, indoors. Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. Not so
great if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley
South, with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that
you're not going to use at all.

OK - then you buy a simple point-so-point season ticket. Where's the
problem?

I didn't know NR point-to-pont seasons were available on Oyster. *And if
they're not, then this is one of the many journeys for which Oyster is
useless.

Where did I say say that NR point-to-point seasons were available on
Oyster? Anyway, that doesn't make Oyster "completely useless on most
journeys", which is exactly what you said. It simply makes it of no
use in such particular situations. And it's useful anyway for catching
the bus on the odd occasion.


and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has
sufficed for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains.
It's totally useless otherwise. And Z1-3 is still no good for all
your leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in
towarsd the centre when you want to be getting heading outwards
towards the suburbs and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

[Actually since November 2007, when LO took over from Silverlink]

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

I'm a south Londoner too - but I've hardly got it in for LO simply
because it's all north of the river (where on I'd say the majority of
intra-London public transport journeys take place, simply because
there's more people north of the river). I've got it in for the TOCs
who've been useless at getting their act in gear, and I've got it in
for the DfT who've been useless at making the TOCs go in for Oyster
PAYG.

I haven't got it in for LO. *I'm just stating the fact that untill the
ELLX is finished, the LO is useless for nearly all journeys south of the
river. *That is a fact.

No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.


I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that one.
I'm only describing the situation on the ground. *That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. But even so, it's
still nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old
Savers bus tickets.

An "inconvenient replacement" that's far more convenient - faster
boarding times, stores lots more credit, isn't susceptible to fraud,
can offer daily capping - yeah, pull the other one.

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left.
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that everyone
keeps taliing about. *And now they've gone, I'll never have the chance
to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a dozen bus tickets
for only a quid!

Point proven!


Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. I'm glad
you've managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it
did mean having to move to Hackney to do it.) But always remember
that Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

Ha ha ha, I see now - you are being a *massive* troll and I claim my
£5 Oyster credit

(Too much sun?)

No. *I think the OP is more likely to be the troll.

He was venting a bit - but so were you.

FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I see what you're saying now. Good
point about the different people's 'bits' of London. (My bits are
definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper

Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster.

- and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
season, just a normal ODTC.

Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Ok, I'm sorry about that.

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left.
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

On Jul 3, 7:02*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

You're the troll. And what the hell is this about being an "Oyster-
apologist" - what on earth is that meant to mean?


Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

That doesn't make you Martin though does it.


If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.

In which case you are as blinkered as you're trying to paint Martin.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. *I'm glad you're finally seeing that.

What is this "most journeys" - you haven't actually defined what you
mean. Most people would I think take it to mean the majority of
journeys that are made. You now appear to be backpeddling to justify
your earlier comments by defining it as meaning all possible journeys
between any two stations in London. OK, *if* that's the definition
you're using then yes, I'd think paper tickets are required for the
majority of them.

At least for one off travel - but for daily commutes, I dare say a
fair number of people make use of season Travelcards as the NR leg is
part of a longer journey. (And season Travelcards that don't include
z1 are actually quite good value. And of course any season Travelcard
can be bought on Oyster.)


Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. *No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

Agreed. But that hardly makes Oyster useless.
(And any Travelcard is good for any London bus.)


I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. *London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. *I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.

OK, so your "most journey" definition does now appear to be "all
possible journeys between any two stations in London". Thanks for
clearing that up.


No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. *I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. *(And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

Balls. It's useful (aka "magnificent) in a *great many* areas north of
the river. But it's all about you of course.


I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. *But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. *You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. *Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

And then what will you have to rant about?


You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. *Congratulations. *But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. *And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

Yes, but just because it isn't useful for you hardly makes it a "white
elephant", as you said elsewhere. Unless the world revolves around
you. In which case we must redraw the solar system.

On 3 July, 19:02, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.



"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. *I'm glad you're finally seeing that.



Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. *No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. *London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. *I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.



No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. *I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. *(And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. *But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. *You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. *Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. *Congratulations. *But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. *And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

It's not useful for you. It's useful for me. Whatever. However, I've
scarcely bought any paper tickets for a long, long time. I couldn't
give a flying f # if you believe me or not - the fact that you don't
believe me is incredulous. I clearly live a life that's different to
you, living in areas different to you, going to places different to
you. All these places all me to use my Oystercard, and this had led to
me not having to buy paper tickets. And what agenda you think I have
as an "Oystercard apologist", jesus, do you think I'm on the payroll
or something? I believe you obviously have to make a number of
journeys on National Rail rather than the tube (which for some reason,
you've completely taken out of the equation, despite the millions that
use it extensively) but don't ignore the fact that huge swathes of the
population use Oystercards and don't have to buy any other tickets
because that's a fact.

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts them, the
better.

On Jul 3, 7:22*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. *I see what you're saying now. *Good
point about the different people's 'bits' of London. *(My bits are
definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

Yes. It's certainly fair to say that 'outer London' is ignored -
indeed, sometimes nigh-on written off - by quite a lot of people, in
particular by 'new arrivals'. Which is a shame, and something I always
try and challenge people on. (Just like those who don't venture south,
or west, etc.)

I would however say there are some places that aren't a particular
pull - perfectly nice to live in, but just not an awful lot there -
although there's always something. And there are places that aren't
quite so nice... though sometimes these are the places that can be
quite interesting! (But sometimes it's hard to find the redeeming
features.)

As people live in London for longer then it's more likely they'll go
exploring. Though there's always the folk who just escape altogether,
perhaps to a country house.


Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper

Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster. *

True. One day, daily capping will sort this out.


- and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
season, just a normal ODTC.

Though FWIW "Oyster Tickets Stops" do sell Day Travelcards.


Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Ok, I'm sorry about that.

And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
throw oneself into the fray too.