"Robin9" wrote in message ...
You can see the tunnels when you travel between Upper Holloway and
Gospel Oak, immediately after the line crosses Highgate Road.

Robin9,

If you're talking about the tunnels which I think you are from what you
wrote in your post above, they are not on the closed route.

I have in front of me an old (paper) map from before the closure, the
streetmap.com version of the area today, the current Baker rail atlas, and
the Google Earth view of the area. The old map does not show a tunnel on
the now closed section. I have older rail atlases from before the closure,
but they are in store, and not readily accessible at the moment. Google
Earth has nothing between 1945 and 1999. By 1999 the line was closed; I
think I can see track on the closed route in the 1945 view, which would mean
that it was not in tunnel, but the quality of the image is very poor when
zoomed in, and I cannot be certain about this.

The whole of the route between Upper Holloway and Gospel Oak/Kentish town
can be seen on streetmap.com at 1:5000. From Upper Holloway the line runs
South West until it passes under Junction Road just to the North of it's
junction with Station Road, presumably the location of the closed Junction
Road station. (Too many junctions around here!) It then reaches Junction
Road Junction where the routes to Gospel Oak and the the Midland line
diverge, but then run parallel to each other for a while. Both sets of
lines pass through Covered Way, but then the Midland route only, which is at
a lower level passes through two short tunnels, Tottenham North Curve Nos. 3
and 2, before passing under Highgate Road. The Gospel Oak route passes over
the road, and then joins the North London just beyond the station. The now
freight only Midland route turns South, and then West before passing under
the North London, and joining the midland line towards West Hampstead at
Carlton Road Junction.. Most of this curve to the West is in tunnel,
Tottenham North Curve No. 1; from your description, I think this is the
tunnel you are talking about; it is still open for freight. Just to the
North of this tunnel, at Engine Shed Junction, the route towards Kentish
Town diverged, crossing what is now Murphy's yard, before joining the main
line at Mortimer Street Junction. The yard extends over the tunnel.

There are buildings to the East/North of the closed curve, several of which
seem to have corners 'cut' to avoid the route of the tracks; one small
building does seem to have been built partly on the line of the route. I
don't know whether the large buildings pre-date the closure of the line, or
were built later to avoid it. I think the route was in shallow cutting
which has been filled in. If the route had been in tunnel, then
re-instating it would probably be easy, but as somebody else has stated, it
would now bisect Murphy's yard, and render a large part of it inaccessible.

It seems highly unlikely that this route will ever re-open, but with the
development of Thameslink it could possibly have been useful. combined with
the re-instatement of the South Tottenham to Tottenham Hale line it could
also have enabled through services to Stanstead, which might have been
useful if the airport is expanded in the future; Stanstead Airport is a pain
to reach from South London and beyond at present.

It's a pity that such a short section of line at Kentish Town was lost, but
selling it off for other use was probably a reasonable decision at the time.

In message , at 21:08:54 on
Thu, 4 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:
There is plenty of practical pressure from commuters, older people,
parents with young kids and those in wheelchairs who would like to use
the rail network with less hassle than they currently encounter.

Here's a good example: I've complained in the past about the lack of
stepless entry to Camden Town tube station. Although one of the two
doorways is level with the pavement it seems exclusively for exit,
leaving passengers entering with several steps to negotiate.

Today, I see that it's gone completely mad. The only way to the
platforms is down the 116-step spiral staircase!

And that's after a neat trick from the Northern Line - all trains from
Kings Cross were going to Hampstead, but I was going to Archway. I can't
see a stepless way of doing the change (there's two flights of stairs at
Camden Town) without going via whatever the first remaining
island-platform station is in the Clapham area. Unless there's a
same-level interchange at Euston, of course, but they were telling
people to change at Camden.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:00:36 on
Sat, 6 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2013 13:38:42 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 21:08:54 on
Thu, 4 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:
There is plenty of practical pressure from commuters, older people,
parents with young kids and those in wheelchairs who would like to use
the rail network with less hassle than they currently encounter.

Here's a good example: I've complained in the past about the lack of
stepless entry to Camden Town tube station. Although one of the two
doorways is level with the pavement it seems exclusively for exit,
leaving passengers entering with several steps to negotiate.

Yes and Kentish Town Road is at a slightly lower level than Chalk Farm
Road. You'll have to explain to me how TfL could provide a ramped
entrance, within their own property delineation, which doesn't cause a
massive trip hazard on the pavement or else be so steep that it was
unusable to someone in a wheelchair.

They don't need to provide a ramp up the steps, just allow people to
*enter* on the other side, on the level, through the most southerly
gate, which is wide and somewhat disjoint from the rest of that
gateline.

Today, I see that it's gone completely mad. The only way to the
platforms is down the 116-step spiral staircase!

Happens every weekend because at certain times the exit flow far
exceeds the entry flow. Camden Town station is simply inadequate for
the demand. The only answer is to rebuild the place but there is not
the land or planning permission that can do this without harming the
market. Camden Council appear to place retention of the market above
the provision of a safe accessible tube station that would allow more
people to reach Camden by tube.

I don't understand that at all. It's on a massive road junction - they
could put a ticket concourse underneath (like at Oxford Circus).

There appears to be no viable solution to expanding Camden Town
station which would also include step free access from platform to
street.

The current site of the booking office could be the accessible entrance.

And that's after a neat trick from the Northern Line - all trains from
Kings Cross were going to Hampstead, but I was going to Archway. I can't
see a stepless way of doing the change (there's two flights of stairs at
Camden Town) without going via whatever the first remaining
island-platform station is in the Clapham area. Unless there's a
same-level interchange at Euston, of course, but they were telling
people to change at Camden.

That will be because there is engineering work associated with testing
of the new signalling on the Edgware branch.

I can understand that stopping the trains from going north of Hampstead,
by why does it stop Bank-branch trains going via Archway?

There is no step free
interchange between N Line branches at Euston.

I somehow thought there wouldn't be.

If you wanted Archway and wanted a step free journey take the 390 bus
- it's pretty fast given it goes up York Way and avoids the more
seriously congested roads in the corridor from KX to Archway.

I don't really understand your overall comment though. Today you're
moaning about a lack of step free routes and the other day you were
saying provision of lifts and ramps was a "box ticking" exercise and
that the assets were then left to rot because no one used them. Make
your mind up!

My comments are about how dedicated TfL seems to be when it comes to
providing step-free access. Where there's the slightest problem - forget
it. If it's easy, grab the money and tick some boxes! (Even if it's
somewhere with little demand)

ps I know it's Network Rail rather than TfL, but I was somewhat amused
to see gleaming new LCD displays at Kings Cross's brand new concourse
showing "Windows XP" error messages this afternoon. It's only six years
out of date.
--
Roland Perry

On 2013\07\06 18:21, Roland Perry wrote:

ps I know it's Network Rail rather than TfL, but I was somewhat amused
to see gleaming new LCD displays at Kings Cross's brand new concourse
showing "Windows XP" error messages this afternoon. It's only six years
out of date.

Just because the displays are new does not prove that the computer
controlling them is new.

In message , at 19:25:30 on
Sat, 6 Jul 2013, Basil Jet remarked:
ps I know it's Network Rail rather than TfL, but I was somewhat amused
to see gleaming new LCD displays at Kings Cross's brand new concourse
showing "Windows XP" error messages this afternoon. It's only six years
out of date.

Just because the displays are new does not prove that the computer
controlling them is new.

The display in question is at least 100 cable-ft from somewhere you
might put a computer, if not inside the back of the display. In any
event, given how new and shiny the place is, why install six year old
computers in the back office.
--
Roland Perry

On 2013\07\06 21:29, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:25:30 on
Sat, 6 Jul 2013, Basil Jet remarked:
ps I know it's Network Rail rather than TfL, but I was somewhat amused
to see gleaming new LCD displays at Kings Cross's brand new concourse
showing "Windows XP" error messages this afternoon. It's only six years
out of date.

Just because the displays are new does not prove that the computer
controlling them is new.

The display in question is at least 100 cable-ft from somewhere you
might put a computer, if not inside the back of the display. In any
event, given how new and shiny the place is, why install six year old
computers in the back office.

LOL. I wasn't suggesting that they recently bought 6yo computers, merely
that the new LCDs were added to a system that was installed 6 years ago.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...

The display in question is at least 100 cable-ft from somewhere you might
put a computer, if not inside the back of the display. In any event, given
how new and shiny the place is, why install six year old computers in the
back office.

I don't know about this installation, but what is basically a pc on the back
of the monitor is quite common, mainly because a simple copper Ethernet
connection can go 100 m from a network switch, and the source of the data
can be another 100 m away from the switch in a different direction, whereas
VGA, DVI, HDMI, Displayport etc. are generally limited to much shorter
distances without special hardware at each end of the link.

A few years ago I was at terminal C at Newark airport. They had recently
installed lots of nice Samsung flatscreen displays since my previous visit,
but they were being driven by actual PCs behind them, Dell if I remember
correctly, rather than a purpose built device mounted on each monitor.
They looked like old ones which had been used with the previous displays.

We have some tills at work which run Windows 2000, which certainly wasn't
the current version when they were new, and things like cash machines and
supermarket checkouts often run old versions of software. I saw a cash
machine a few years ago which was running OS/2. I suppose the old version
has been tested and proven to work, and if it's not broken don't fix it.
These sort of applications seldom need features which weren't available in
the older versions, and in the case of PIDs even security patches probably
wouldn't be needed.

On Sat, 6 Jul 2013 13:38:42 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
And that's after a neat trick from the Northern Line - all trains from
Kings Cross were going to Hampstead, but I was going to Archway. I can't
see a stepless way of doing the change (there's two flights of stairs at
Camden Town)

I thought the stairs were only between the southbound platforms with
the northbound platforms both being on the same level as the bottom of
the escalators (ignoring the passageways at the south of the platforms
where the spiral stairs are)?

In message , at 22:33:56 on
Sat, 6 Jul 2013, Basil Jet remarked:
ps I know it's Network Rail rather than TfL, but I was somewhat amused
to see gleaming new LCD displays at Kings Cross's brand new concourse
showing "Windows XP" error messages this afternoon. It's only six years
out of date.

Just because the displays are new does not prove that the computer
controlling them is new.

The display in question is at least 100 cable-ft from somewhere you
might put a computer, if not inside the back of the display. In any
event, given how new and shiny the place is, why install six year old
computers in the back office.

LOL. I wasn't suggesting that they recently bought 6yo computers,
merely that the new LCDs were added to a system that was installed 6
years ago.

Ahem, the entire station has been rebuilt, and re-opened only a year
ago. The screen in question is in the new part.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:20:54 on
Sat, 6 Jul 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:
They don't need to provide a ramp up the steps, just allow people to
*enter* on the other side, on the level, through the most southerly
gate, which is wide and somewhat disjoint from the rest of that
gateline.

sigh

Thereby instanly creating a crossflow and potential congestion behind
the gates. They actually need to keep flows apart as far as possible
given the tiny amount of space in the ticket hall. Camden Town was
one of the most difficult places to put in a gateline.

In fact, the gate I'm talking about, being at the apex of the triangular
space, would not crate a crossflow at all. The flow would be all-inward
(up the steps and past the ticket machines, plus that one gate at the
Apex). And all-outward on the remaining stepless gates.

The problem is that if you allow it at quiet times people will demand
it when the place is heaving full with people trying to exit.

People "demanding to use" the down escalators yesterday weren't getting
very far.

I'd probably agree with you at a quiet location but Camden Town is
just far too busy.

Today, I see that it's gone completely mad. The only way to the
platforms is down the 116-step spiral staircase!

Happens every weekend because at certain times the exit flow far
exceeds the entry flow. Camden Town station is simply inadequate for
the demand. The only answer is to rebuild the place but there is not
the land or planning permission that can do this without harming the
market. Camden Council appear to place retention of the market above
the provision of a safe accessible tube station that would allow more
people to reach Camden by tube.

I don't understand that at all. It's on a massive road junction - they
could put a ticket concourse underneath (like at Oxford Circus).

My understanding is that that is not feasible given the need to add
extra escalator and lift capacity but within the broad envelope of
where the platforms are. The plan has always been to reconstruct on
the site north of the main road junction.

There appears to be no viable solution to expanding Camden Town
station which would also include step free access from platform to
street.

The current site of the booking office could be the accessible entrance.

So where do you put the booking office?

In the large space you dig below the road surface. And that's also where
you put the top of any extra escalators.

And that's after a neat trick from the Northern Line - all trains from
Kings Cross were going to Hampstead, but I was going to Archway. I can't
see a stepless way of doing the change (there's two flights of stairs at
Camden Town) without going via whatever the first remaining
island-platform station is in the Clapham area. Unless there's a
same-level interchange at Euston, of course, but they were telling
people to change at Camden.

That will be because there is engineering work associated with testing
of the new signalling on the Edgware branch.

I can understand that stopping the trains from going north of Hampstead,
by why does it stop Bank-branch trains going via Archway?

I assume that they adopted a fixed service pattern given constraints
on the number of trains as I expect Golders Green depot and Edgware
sidings were inaccessible.

They had enough trains to run a regular service on both branches.

I don't really understand your overall comment though. Today you're
moaning about a lack of step free routes and the other day you were
saying provision of lifts and ramps was a "box ticking" exercise and
that the assets were then left to rot because no one used them. Make
your mind up!

My comments are about how dedicated TfL seems to be when it comes to
providing step-free access. Where there's the slightest problem - forget
it. If it's easy, grab the money and tick some boxes! (Even if it's
somewhere with little demand)

You do seem to be very selective in where you expect the authorities
to do things - usually where it benefits you!

I'm usually looking at the benefits for a wider community. I'm certainly
not the only person in London wanting step-free access, or shorter
queues at ticket offices, for example.

You also seem to be very unwilling to see that there might be other
reasons as to why things are done the way they are.

Things are normally "done the way the are", because that's the easiest.
I'm always looking for ways to improve, even if it means a bit more
effort (so much could be done by better management, rather than more
civil engineering).
--
Roland Perry