"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, at 15:54:19 on Mon, 23 Jan 2017, Recliner
remarked:

In what sense would doing nothing "return control of our borders",
which
a slim majority voted for?

They weren't objecting to tourists and casual visitors. They wanted to
limit the number of foreign workers potentially taking jobs from
British
workers, and foreign users of the NHS and other welfare services.

What about foreign workers in the NHS? I accompanied someone today for
a
minor operation, and of the dozen or more staff we came into contact
with (from receptionist to surgeon) only three appeared (from their
accents) to be born and bred in the UK.

Nobody ever accused the Bexiteers of being excessively rational!

Except that they do, mostly, accept we need the skilled workers

it's the unskilled ones (without jobs, when they arrive) that we don't
need

So simply limit the number of work permits (and new NI numbers) for such
roles.

That's just a solution to a specific problem, you were suggesting that
Bexiteers didn't even understand the problem.

(or if you are suggesting it as a solution, without leaving the EU - Not
allowed)

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message
-septem
ber.org, at 09:46:34 on Tue, 24 Jan 2017, Recliner
remarked:
What about foreign workers in the NHS? I accompanied someone today for
a
minor operation, and of the dozen or more staff we came into contact
with (from receptionist to surgeon) only three appeared (from their
accents) to be born and bred in the UK.

Nobody ever accused the Bexiteers of being excessively rational!

Except that they do, mostly, accept we need the skilled workers

it's the unskilled ones (without jobs, when they arrive) that we don't
need

So simply limit the number of work permits (and new NI numbers) for such
roles.

I could be wrong, but I think you need to be sponsored by an employer to
get an NI number.

That doesn't sanity check

how does a school leaver, who hasn't secured a job yet, turn up and sign on
for his dole if he hasn't already got an NI number?

Or did you just mean foreign nationals?

And they don't expire when you go back home for the winter. Next summer,
that person now has an NI number already when they return to be working.

Or someone who worked here 5 years ago turning up in 5 years time.

Or even someone who has never worked here, pretending to be someone who
worked here 5 years ago (presumably with the complicity of that 2nd party)

Much of the discussion here has been about it being "too difficult" to
administer a widespread work-permit scheme, and then weed out the economic
migrants from the tourists at the border.

It's much to difficult to weed out at the border

It has to be done at the work place

And for the reasons above, it can't be done via "ownership" of an NI number,
it has to be some other document (documenting all of the people who are
already here, assuming there is agreement for them to stay, is going to be a
nightmare). But it's our nightmare :-)

tim

In message , at 10:37:55 on Tue, 24 Jan
2017, tim... remarked:

FTAOD enforcement of work visas will be done by employment checks, not
at port of entry. (I accept that we don't make a brilliant job of that
now, that will have to change)

Nor, it seems, do the USA-ians in southern California. But they do try
to make an effort on the border.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 17:47:07 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 17:17:49 on Mon, 23
Jan 2017, Neil Williams remarked:
How would that work? People who have been marked as unwelcome being
met at the gate (in the UK), or is the idea to compel the airlines
not to let them board?
The latter is how it already works.
I suspect the "no-fly" list only has people on it who are regarded
as a
terrorist threat, rather than economic migrants.
The UK unwelcome list might include anyone who had been deported
for any
reason, or who had a UK criminal conviction, or who had broken UK
immigration rules in the past.
You think the anti-terrorist no-fly list would scale like that?

Yes, of course it would, why not? Hardware is cheap these days. For a
bigger database, all you need is more storage and more/faster CPUs.

No, the scarce resource is those deciding who to put on the list, and
handling complaints when people are denied boarding.

Better that it be done once, centrally, rather than by individual
passport desk officers making snap decisions after asking a few
questions and doing their own on-line checks. After all, the number to
be excluded will be a tiny proportion of all EU citizens, or even of
EU citizens wanting to travel to the UK.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 10:37:55 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 20:48:22 on Mon, 23 Jan 2017, Recliner
remarked:
Paid to organise and hold the meeting, which is educating attendees
about things done by others elsewhere.

I'd suggest that is work, because you're paid for that specific
thing,
it isn't meetings incidental to being paid to do something else
which
is primarily not done in that country.

As per my example - meetings to obtain requirements for and then
demonstrate a piece of software which is built out of country =
business meetings. But I'd say providing paid training or on-site
implementation for said software is work.

I agree. Will this sort of thing require a work permit from the EU
country, post-Brexit?

I certainly hope not. I'm sure the business lobby is heavily twisting
the
government's arm to minimise this sort of pointless 'friction'.

That's "business" (buying and selling) not individuals going to the EU
to do the odd days work.

The rules will be the same for both. The last thing anyone wants is for
the
huge numbers of EU citizens passing through UK airports to all have to
have
even a two minute conversation with a Border Force officer. And any such
rules we dream up for them will be applied equally to UK citizens in the
EU.

I don't believe for one minute it will be *us* dreaming up the rules

that will be them and we will follow

Huh? "They" were quite happy with the existing rules. It's *us* that are
planning to change them.

no, we are leaving

on terms, more or less, dictated by them

Whilst I accept that on immigration, once we have left, we can do what we
like, and will almost certainly impose restrictions on people coming here to
work, there would seem to be no plan to impose restrictions on Europeans
coming here as tourists or on incidental business trips UNLESS they do that
on us (which, at least one of, the "we must punish them" brigade has
suggested that they should do.)

FTAOD enforcement of work visas will be done by employment checks, not at
port of entry. (I accept that we don't make a brilliant job of that now,
that will have to change)

The more restrictive we make the new rules for EU
citizens, the more they will be for us.

but only for "working" visits.

And remember that the CTA will remain, so EU citizens will be free to
visit
Dublin, and then freely travel to the UK. So there's no point in dreaming
up some complicated arrangement for UK airports if there's a simple, legal
backdoor.

As above, there will be no enforcement of working visas at point of entry,
even if we didn't have this issue (but the fact that we do makes it all the
more certain)

Exactly, so entry procedures at airports for EU citizens should not
need to change much, or at all.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 10:13:53 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 09:46:34 on Tue, 24 Jan 2017, Recliner
remarked:
What about foreign workers in the NHS? I accompanied someone today for a
minor operation, and of the dozen or more staff we came into contact
with (from receptionist to surgeon) only three appeared (from their
accents) to be born and bred in the UK.

Nobody ever accused the Bexiteers of being excessively rational!

Except that they do, mostly, accept we need the skilled workers

it's the unskilled ones (without jobs, when they arrive) that we don't need

So simply limit the number of work permits (and new NI numbers) for such
roles.

I could be wrong, but I think you need to be sponsored by an employer to
get an NI number. And they don't expire when you go back home for the
winter. Next summer, that person now has an NI number already when they
return to be working.

Yes, I think that's correct. Maybe we need a new class of time-limited
(but renewable) NI numbers for people who don't have an automatic
right to work in the UK?


Much of the discussion here has been about it being "too difficult" to
administer a widespread work-permit scheme, and then weed out the
economic migrants from the tourists at the border.

I really don't think we should be doing it at the border.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:40:38 on Tue, 24 Jan 2017,
tim... remarked:
They weren't objecting to tourists and casual visitors. They wanted to
limit the number of foreign workers potentially taking jobs from
British
workers, and foreign users of the NHS and other welfare services.

What about foreign workers in the NHS? I accompanied someone today for
a
minor operation, and of the dozen or more staff we came into contact
with (from receptionist to surgeon) only three appeared (from their
accents) to be born and bred in the UK.

Nobody ever accused the Bexiteers of being excessively rational!

Except that they do, mostly, accept we need the skilled workers

it's the unskilled ones (without jobs, when they arrive) that we don't
need

You think are lots of people arriving like that? Well, perhaps the asylum
seekers, but generally they aren't EU citizens (even Assange isn't).

Really!

you have obviously never looked at this statistic and yet try to make that
claim

go and look

It's something like 50% of EU migrants arrive here "without a job - looking
for work" (as opposed to the non EU migrants where the vast majority of
"without a job" are to be supported by family members - a claim that is
verified before the visa is granted - and those that are looking for work
will be Tier 1 Visas who can only be employed in a qualifying job. If they
can't get that they have to go home again, they can't take a burger flippers
job instead, unlike the EU migrants.)

No, they are recruited by the employers and come here to work on jobs the
locals are not qualified for (in the sense they would rather be on the
dole than do them).

I didn't say otherwise

But they don't come here having "been recruited", they come here (perhaps
hoping to get skilled work) and are then recruited for unskilled work (cos
it's all they can get)

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 23:00:30 on Mon, 23 Jan 2017,
Clank remarked:

Just to show Usenet is living up to its reputation of provoking
counter-examples, I've got a Russian visa for what they classified as a
business trip, valid for one entry/exit during a 30 day window.

Ah, I think the point you're making might be "it's possible to apply for a
business visa without any of the benefits which make a business visa
useful".

Being able to enter once is useful.

(I bet you won't even believe the visa for Turkey I obtained today was
delivered electronically - much like mobile boarding passes and ticketing,
unpossible!)

I bought mine at the airport on arrival. Sounds like another process
that's change since then.

for the worst, yes :-)

There is a change over period during which either method is available, but
visas on arrive are to be abolished at some point in the future

tim

In message , at 10:54:01 on
Tue, 24 Jan 2017, Recliner remarked:
You think the anti-terrorist no-fly list would scale like that?

Yes, of course it would, why not? Hardware is cheap these days. For a
bigger database, all you need is more storage and more/faster CPUs.

No, the scarce resource is those deciding who to put on the list, and
handling complaints when people are denied boarding.

Better that it be done once, centrally,

By a huge team of people?

rather than by individual
passport desk officers making snap decisions after asking a few
questions and doing their own on-line checks. After all, the number to
be excluded will be a tiny proportion of all EU citizens, or even of
EU citizens wanting to travel to the UK.

I thought we were told this is a huge problem with hundreds of thousands
of economic migrants from the EU.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:47:50 on Tue, 24 Jan
2017, tim... remarked:

What about foreign workers in the NHS? I accompanied someone
today for a
minor operation, and of the dozen or more staff we came into contact
with (from receptionist to surgeon) only three appeared (from their
accents) to be born and bred in the UK.

Nobody ever accused the Bexiteers of being excessively rational!

Except that they do, mostly, accept we need the skilled workers

it's the unskilled ones (without jobs, when they arrive) that we
don't need

So simply limit the number of work permits (and new NI numbers) for such
roles.

I could be wrong, but I think you need to be sponsored by an employer
to get an NI number.

That doesn't sanity check

how does a school leaver, who hasn't secured a job yet, turn up and
sign on for his dole if he hasn't already got an NI number?

Or did you just mean foreign nationals?

The latter. iirc the employer has to send off some kind of "this new
employee doesn't have an NI" form.
--
Roland Perry