"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get
it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff
around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the
barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty.


You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the
area!

Oh

so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it?

tim

On 16/12/2018 16:48, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on
the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to
get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number,
faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to
just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the
barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty.


You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the
area!

Oh

so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it?



Oh dear, and the TdF is every year I believe and takes rather more than
one day.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.

I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.

I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.

Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.

Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey

The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account

On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff
around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the

Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.

In message , at 09:46:48 on Mon, 17 Dec
2018, remarked:
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the

Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.

Not "always". Originally it was about squeezing two lanes of dual
carriageway, and some local traffic, into a single-bore tunnel.

--
Roland Perry

On 17/12/2018 09:46, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff
around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the

Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.


More to the point, British drivers seem to have forgotten how to merge
efficiently these days so any narrowing of the road consistently causes
massive delays wherever it is.

Same as they have forgotten that the national speed limit is 60 (70
where there are multiple lanes and a central reservation) and not 50.

Also that any maneuver should, as a default, not cause another road user
to have to brake (see my first point on merging, but also the idiots at
motorway junctions who pull out a lane without regard to what is coming
behind them because they think it is the "safer" thing to do, and to
avoid having to merge effectively with traffic entering the motorway)..

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:38:57 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:46:48 on Mon, 17 Dec
2018, remarked:
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the

Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.

Not "always". Originally it was about squeezing two lanes of dual
carriageway, and some local traffic, into a single-bore tunnel.

No doubt it was just as bad then. The point still stands that it doesn't matter
what you do with the northbound tolls, the tunnels themselves are the
bottleneck.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:57:08 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 17/12/2018 09:46, wrote:
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.


More to the point, British drivers seem to have forgotten how to merge
efficiently these days so any narrowing of the road consistently causes
massive delays wherever it is.

It only takes 1 or 2 idiots to start merging half a mile before the restriction
to **** everything else up. Usually they're the sort of idiot who thinks its
"bad form" to drive all the way down and merge at the end even though thats the
most efficient use of road space and then deliberately try and block anyone
who does.

Same as they have forgotten that the national speed limit is 60 (70
where there are multiple lanes and a central reservation) and not 50.

50? If only. I was stuck with about a dozen other cars behind some plank the
other day doing 30 on the A41 out in the sticks.

motorway junctions who pull out a lane without regard to what is coming
behind them because they think it is the "safer" thing to do, and to
avoid having to merge effectively with traffic entering the motorway)..

Some drivers seem to think a rear view mirror is an optional extra.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.

I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.

I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.

Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.

Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey

The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account

On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.

Banks don't check signatures anyway.

In message , at 11:47:11 on
Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Optimist remarked:

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account

On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.

Banks don't check signatures anyway.

It's more for auditing purposes, to make sure no-one is siphoning off
funds. For example it's usually prohibited for the two signatures to be
related one another (even if both of them are officers of the
organisation).
--
Roland Perry